Crypto publication

[b0bab0ey]

Learned a few new things from a publication from the U of Florida (see link below). The author is a Vet and Associate Professor, so I guess his opinions are as good as anyone else's. Some of the things I learned:

* Hypo may not work on all strains: "More recently, studies have demonstrated different salinity tolerances among strains of Cryptocaryon. Yambot (2003) described one Taiwanese outbreak occurring in sea bream Sparus sarba at a salinity of 5 g/L, and another outbreak in sea perch Lates calcarifer occurring at a salinity of 10 g/L. These two strains were successfully propagated in the laboratory at 7 and 10 g/L, respectively, and are well below previously documented preferred salinities."

Hypo is usually done at a SG of 1.009, which is still slightly higher than 10 g/L.

* It can take up to 72 days for copper/hypo to work: "As described above, in some reports, theronts were not released until 72 days after initial tomont formation, so some situations may require longer treatment time periods."

* "Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to 6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997)."

Also, read what the article says about Crypto and temperature.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

 

[alprazo]

This article provides several reasons not just to QT for almost 3 months, but also to treat. A carrier fish will make it through months of QT, no signs, no symptoms, but yet bring the parasite into the DT with them.

It also supports my argument of using Chloroquine phosphate. The mechanism of action, simplified, is to accumulate in very high concentrations in the food vacules of the orgamism. It prevents detoxification of metabolites and death to the parasite. This occurs in feeding parasites and therefore will shorten the treatment course as compared to hypo and copper. It will also treat the fish directly instead of preventing additional parasitic infestation.

 

[b0bab0ey]

It also explains to me why my PB Tang still has Crypto in her gills after more than a month in copper. There's no way she can handle 72 days in copper and I can never return her to the DT as long as I know she's infected. Just when I think diseases in this hobby can't possibly get any more difficult to treat, I go and read something like this!

 

[dunc101]

Very good read. Thanks for the link!

 

[Haffs09]

Thanks for an excellent read bObabOey!

Some here are aware of my struggles with ich in my 500 gal system. I suspect I had/have one of those hypo resistant strains. My system currently has been running in freshwater (RODI) for ~2 weeks. It's too bad the article doesn't mention the duration in freshwater it takes to kill this parasite. If a tomont can remain dormant for 72 days in saltwater, I wonder if it can survive in freshwater for that length of time? Looking at the table for methods of disinfection, I think I'm going to put a bunch of heaters into the tank and crank up the temperature as high as it can go and keep it there for a couple of days. I doubt I'll be able to achieve 104°F, but we'll see. Maybe that will take care of any surviving tomants?

In regards to the surviving 4 fish... They just finished 3 weeks of cupramine at levels between 0.5-0.7ppm. Rather than observe for another 5-6 weeks and dump into the display tank (if it's ready), I may set up another tank to observe them for 2-3 months.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Looking at the table for methods of disinfection, I think I'm going to put a bunch of heaters into the tank and crank up the temperature as high as it can go and keep it there for a couple of days. I doubt I'll be able to achieve 104°F, but we'll see. Maybe that will take care of any surviving tomants?

The article does say 104°F for 1 hr will kill Ich tomonts & theronts. I have no idea how you could achieve this though, especially with just aquarium heaters. But if you could that would be a helluva lot easier than breaking down a 500 gal system and setting it back up. Even if it killed all of your bacteria and you had to recycle. I know some people will use bleach on a FO system but that would make me nervous as hell. And draining never equates to getting 100% of the water out.

I found everything the article said about Crypto & temp to be fascinating. Especially the part about how Crypto remained dormant for 4–5 months at 53.6°F and then came roaring back once the temp was increased to 80.6°F. I wonder if some people with FOWLR systems just turn off their heaters for 8-9 weeks while going fallow and that is the thing that's preventing the Crypto from being completely eradicated. While I'm sure their tank never gets down into the 50s, 60s could possibly slow the parasite's life cycle or even make it go dormant. Conversely, it sounds like the best thing to do while going fallow is increase temp to possibly speed up the life cycle. I'm no scientist or anything, and everything I'm saying here is purely conjecture... but it does seem to line up with what the article is saying with regards to Crypto & temperature.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Snorvich's sticky on "Fallow period for C.I." explains the difficulty (really impossibility) of achieving 100% kill of ich theronts. The numbers in his thread are similar to the 72 days in the study. Because the long time involved (in a few cases only) is really just time waiting for cysts to release their theronts; I think these numbers are a great argument for treating ich, especially "difficult' cases, with tank transfer method. It eliminates the cysts just waiting for well over the norm to release their theronts.

The hypo info is just one more argument against hypo, IMO. With tank transfer, copper (almost always works), and Quinine Sulfate available; plus the difficulty of hypo----I just see no reason to ever use hypo again. I've never liked it and all the recent failures, plus the info above, just reinforce my opinion. Thanks!

 

[MrTuskfish]

It also explains to me why my PB Tang still has Crypto in her gills after more than a month in copper. There's no way she can handle 72 days in copper and I can never return her to the DT as long as I know she's infected. Just when I think diseases in this hobby can't possibly get any more difficult to treat, I go and read something like this!

I've been following your trials with this fish; you sure have been relentless and something ha to give somewhere. Without re-reading all the threads; how do you know its crypt in the gills? With this amount of time; you'd think some spots would have to show up on the fish if it was ich....especially a PBT.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I've been following your trials with this fish; you sure have been relentless and something ha to give somewhere. Without re-reading all the threads; how do you know its crypt in the gills? With this amount of time; you'd think some spots would have to show up on the fish if it was ich....especially a PBT.

Basically through process of elimination. She def had white spots in the DT and even had them for the first few days in QT. The white spots went away shortly after the copper treatment began but she's been twitching her head ever since. Now she's twitching, scratching on the PVC around her gills & head, and begging the six-line wrasse to clean her gills. So there's def something in her gills that's bothering her. I hit her with 3 rounds Prazi and just recently gave her a f/w bath. It's not Flukes. So, what else can it possibly be? Everything else about her seems fine.

This fish is driving me crazy! I've never had so many problems treating a fish for Ich before... and at the same time I've never wanted to save a fish so badly!

 

[MrTuskfish]

Basically through process of elimination. She def had white spots in the DT and even had them for the first few days in QT. The white spots went away shortly after the copper treatment began but she's been twitching her head ever since. Now she's twitching, scratching on the PVC around her gills & head, and begging the six-line wrasse to clean her gills. So there's def something in her gills that's bothering her. I hit her with 3 rounds Prazi and just recently gave her a f/w bath. It's not Flukes. So, what else can it possibly be? Everything else about her seems fine.

This fish is driving me crazy! I've never had so many problems treating a fish for Ich before... and at the same time I've never wanted to save a fish so badly!

I'd say "I feel your pain"; but that cheesy saying just isn't in my vocabulary. Just a stab in the dark: possibly scar tissue or even infection from the ich? There are zillions of isopods that could possibly (a long shot) be to blame. I once had a purple tang that was constantly rubbing its gill are on some LR and I was going nuts trying to figure it out. I netted the fish and was going to dose with an antibiotic in my QT, I was sure it wasn't a parasite or fluke. I held the fish with a wet towel and looked in his gills, found and removed an isopod the size of a snail....that did it. The isopod was really attached, so I swabbed the gill area (just where the isopod was attached) with iodine, poured on some Stresscoat, gave him a few weeks in QT and he thrived until Katrina got him. I'm sure not suggesting that this is what's happening; just that there are a lot of fish-tormentors that we don't recognize. This was blind luck; but it can't hurt to carefully examine under the gill covers. Plan ahead, holding a fish and doing a physical can be tricky. I do it over a pan of water and use a towel soaked in tank water. This can remove slime coat, so I always add some Stresscoat (directly on the fish) just before tossing him in the tank.

 

[geaux xman]

When I went fallow due to Velvet in my 180g, I tried heating up the tank too. With about 800watts, I was only able to get to 90 degrees. I kept the heaters on for a couple of weeks, but it just got way too hot and humid in the room. I also ran about 1.0ppm cupramine for the entire 7 weeks in the DT. I wanted a near 100% guarantee no parasite was going to make it thru the fallow period.

Bobaboey, just b/c the fish is twitching and flashing, theres no telling what it could have. It might very well not be ich. Just like humans, there are many unexplained illnesses thats very difficult to diagnose.

If the PBT still had ich, I would think it would already show up again in the forms of white spots and not just lay dormant.

 

[mess7777]

I find this interesting.

More targeted development of a vaccine to protect against Cryptocaryon irritans has been ongoing for a number of years (Yambot and Song 2006; Hatanaka 2007; Luo et al. 2007; Bai et al. 2008), and preliminary results are encouraging. However, vaccine development is a lengthy process, and no commercial vaccines are currently available.

However, I am not about to spend $35 to read one of them! Whoever does develop that vaccine will be able to charge a fortune.

 

[alprazo]

I read new posts daily about how ich is killing their fish, how hypo works and doesn't work, the difficulties of copper and months of a fish less tank only to find crypto still present. Yet when I mention chloroquine it goes ignored. Over and over again.

I first used it during a Amyloodinium outbreak in August of 2009. I saved about 1/2 my fish. Since that time I've used it on more than 2 dozen times with Fish and sharks. I posted my success with it about a year ago in both Amyloodinium and cryptocaryon. I have had zero deaths attributable to the chloroquine, and have seen no resistance. It's mechanism of action works on treating the infected fish directly and therefore nothing works faster (OK, maybe formalin). I have used it in combo with praziquantil. (In humans, chloroquine will speed the liver's metabolism of praziquantil, but this effect is unlikely to be an issue in bath treatment so dosing doesn't change. ). I have used it in combo with ciprofloxacin and nitrofurazone in bath form too with good results too.

You should really consider treating your PBT with this medication. It is 40mg per gallon. Dosed only once and no water changes. No testing levels and it lasts for the required treatment time, several weeks. Removed by UV or carbon. I really don't understand why everyone continues to struggle with such poor and tedious treatment options when a good alternative is available.

 

[alprazo]

As for Mr. Tuskfish's comments about Isopoda, he is correct. It was able to diagnose a parasitic amphipod in one of my sharks. There are thousands of possible parasites to enter our aquariums and infect our fish. The only true diagnosis is from scraping and ID with a microscope for many of the ones we deal with. Crypto is so common it makes sense to treat empirically if your fish exhibits signs and/or symptoms. Though after appropriate treatment and it hasn't responded, you should then consider that it may be something else.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I hear what you guys are saying. I just remembered that this PBT did have Lympho when I first got her, so I guess that's a possibility as well. Anyone ever see Lympho inside a fish's gills? I guess if this continues I will have to "examine her" more closely. It took me weeks to build up enough courage just to do the f/w dip. When I go down to New Orleans next month I'm considering just bringing this fish down to my dad. He doesn't care if his fish have Ich or not, or if it needs to be operated on he'll just grab a razor blade and hack away.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I read new posts daily about how ich is killing their fish, how hypo works and doesn't work, the difficulties of copper and months of a fish less tank only to find crypto still present. Yet when I mention chloroquine it goes ignored. Over and over again.

You and Chloroquine Phosphate def have my attention. As does Quinine Sulfate. I've never used either before, but I'm willing to give both a go if need be.

You say Chloroquine works directly on the fish? So it kills not only the free swimmers but all the other stages as well? Where do I get it and what are the dosing instructions?

 

[alprazo]

You are not alone, no one seems to use it.

If its mode of action is similar to that of Plasmodium, which I believe, it will only kill the parasitic or trophont stage. This clears this fish and prevents reproduction.

I initially purchased it from Canada. Now I get it in powder form from a large animal, veterinary pharmacy. Cattle get malaria too. There is also an aquatic pharmaceutical company that sells it online. The prices from them are so cheap for their meds that I have concerns.

Dose is 40mg/gal or 10mg/L.

 

[b0bab0ey]

You are not alone, no one seems to use it.

If its mode of action is similar to that of Plasmodium, which I believe, it will only kill the parasitic or trophont stage. This clears this fish and prevents reproduction.

I initially purchased it from Canada. Now I get it in powder form from a large animal, veterinary pharmacy. Cattle get malaria too. There is also an aquatic pharmaceutical company that sells it online. The prices from them are so cheap for their meds that I have concerns.

Dose is 40mg/gal or 10mg/L.

I'm going to ask around and look for it. I found a place online that sells the pills at a somewhat reasonable price. Of course, Quinine Sulfate is a lot more readily available and much cheaper. But I've also read it's not as effective and harsher on the fish.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I read new posts daily about how ich is killing their fish, how hypo works and doesn't work, the difficulties of copper and months of a fish less tank only to find crypto still present. Yet when I mention chloroquine it goes ignored. Over and over again.

Look how often just a basic QT is ignored.
I'm guessing that a lot of folks just don't know about the quinine products or just assume they are another worthless ''reef-safe" ich cure. Quinine drugs are neither. I've come close to using chloroquine (or a similar quinine drug) a couple of times, as a prophylactic; but I'm just so comfortable with Cupramine, that I haven't. Once in a while, I'm asked to treat an expensive ich infected fish by a little lfs, if I have the room. The fish isn't going into my tank, so I'll give chloroquine a shot. This isn't a lack of confidence in chloroquine; its just something I've never used and I trust Cupramine completely and know the little quirks that go along with the stuff. I did talk to a couple of tech-types, one I've known for years, about the quinine products and both had about the same comments. They generally work well, but are hard to get (and keep) in suspension, and they are impossible to test for. The effective range may be wide enough where testing isn't required---I'll admit I just don't know. One thing in favor of the quinine stuff is that very experienced people (like yourself) seem to recommend it. I have suggested it a couple of times and certainly consider it viable treatment option. It's just hard to suggest something that you've never tried. I'll change that when I get the chance to try it.
Although my personal preference isn't worth anymore than anyone else's; I'm sure at the point where I think hypo should be crossed off the list of first-choice ich cures. I never have liked this method and am convinced that a vast majority of failures with hypo are due to the precise measurements that most hobbyists just can't do. Plus, so many of the folks treating for ich are fairly new, as evidenced by the failure to have had the fish in a QT in the first place.

 

[b0bab0ey]

The problem I'm finding with Chloroquine is availability. I found one place online that wants almost $200 for a kilo of it. WTH?! Only other options seem to be beg a doc for a prescription or a vet. Quinine is a lot more readily available. One site wants $13 for it but $13 shipping. Which, of course, ****es me off!

The thing with Crypto is this: How many different strains exist? 100? 1000? And while copper/tank transfer might work on most and hypo might work on some, I think it's very possible that there are many different strains out there with widely varying characteristics.

I'm also starting to believe that QT is just half the battle. Providing good nutrition will keep your fish healthy from QT to DT. And if something unexpected happens in the DT (like Crypto) a healthy, well fed fish has a far better chance of surviving longer in the DT and the QT/medication ordeal that lay ahead.