Cryptocaryon irritans vaccination ...?

[daisy002]

I know that is has been done before, and I'm asking for anyone to lead me in the right direction for research. I was wondering if anyone has any actual data on using dead C. irritans as a "vaccination" against ick.

I haven't had any issues with it, but I am sincerely interested in working with fish immunity this for research. I just can't seem to find much on this topic. Meanwhile... I'll be digging up published articles, lol.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Try some SW aquaculture research labs. I think a parasitologist (scientists who study my ex-In Laws ) at USM in Ocean Springs MS. was doing some looking at a possible vaccine. They were wiped out by Katrina, but I'm sure they're still there. I'm pretty much in the dark when it comes to this sort of science; is there any precedent for a permanent vaccine for any kind of external parasite?

 

[daisy002]

I've been led to believe that this is an actual possibility. I have read some published articles about catfish that have successfully vaccinated, but I'm not sure of how much research has been done in ornamental fish. I'm also not so sure about giving an injectible vaccination. On the study with the catfish, the fish were injected. Not sure how this would work for stress or the little bodies of our salt water fish. I've done injection vaccinations for mice against S. typhimurium, and I'm wondering if just administering the vaccine into the water or gills of a healthy fish in a hospital tank would help the immune systems of the fish. This could render the fish immune to ick, and would be amazing for people with reef systems. Since it is a protozoan, I'm not sure how this would work, but I think its possible.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I've been led to believe that this is an actual possibility. I have read some published articles about catfish that have successfully vaccinated, but I'm not sure of how much research has been done in ornamental fish. I'm also not so sure about giving an injectible vaccination. On the study with the catfish, the fish were injected. Not sure how this would work for stress or the little bodies of our salt water fish. I've done injection vaccinations for mice against S. typhimurium, and I'm wondering if just administering the vaccine into the water or gills of a healthy fish in a hospital tank would help the immune systems of the fish. This could render the fish immune to ick, and would be amazing for people with reef systems. Since it is a protozoan, I'm not sure how this would work, but I think its possible.

A religious followed quarantine procedure works just fine.

 

[sleepydoc]

A vaccine against a single-celled bacteria with a mammalian immune system in an immunologically active organ is quite different from one against a multicellular parasite in the gills of a fish. Any killed vaccine would likely have to be injected or otherwise directly administered to the fish as dead paracytes would not attach to the fish and encryst to elicit an immune response. Not saying it couldn't be done, but I'm not holding my breath, either.

Would tend to agree with Mr. Tuskfish - QT is likely easier, cheaper and safer for the foreseeable future.

 

[sleepydoc]

(scientists who study my ex-In Laws )

:lmao:

 

[daisy002]

It wouldn't have to attach would it? Or perhaps an oral vaccine? I know this may sound silly, but I'm more interested in the science side of it. The immune system just needs to be exposed to the toxins in order to elicit a primary and secondary immune response, thus building a memory to the antigen.

Maybe humoral immunity, or serum, from a fish that survived it would provide the antibodies to defend against it. Of course, that would have to be injected.

Like I said before, I don't have a problem with it. I'm just sincerely interested in the subject. Something like this may help someone who does have an issue with it in the future. I really appreciate your replies!

 

[Painted skin]

I'll believe it when I see it.
First of all ich is not a disease, it is an external parasitic infestation. Diseases are usually referred to bacteria or viral infection which attack internal cellular struture. It is not an immunity when you see fish starts to eat and gain their strength protective slim coat to ward off external parasites. The same fish can just as easily get stress again and their slim coat defense weaken. If ich is in your tank they would be just as vulnerable to ich.

It's like throwing someone in a pond infested with leeches chances are they are going to be attached unless that person have barrier they will get their blood sucked out. Just my 2 cents.

 

[daisy002]

Like I said, this has already been accomplished in some fish. It is indeed a disease, from a cilliated protozoan pathogen. Antibody titers can be found in the slime coats of groupers after being given a killed version of the vaccine, and the vaccinated fish survived. Fish are vertebrates, and they have an acquired immune system, right?

This is definitely not something that would not be economical for general use, and more than likely not even practical. However, the research could help with mechanisms of the organism, and lead to better treatments. I'm not asking if it can be done, I'm just asking for any pointers in a direction for previous data or published papers I haven't crossed over yet.

 

[snorvich]

There are some fish that develop immunity to selected species of parasite. They can still carry the parasite but seem unaffected. However that immunity seems to fade at about the six month time frame.

 

[daisy002]

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for Snorvich, thank you!

 

[sleepydoc]

I don't know anything about fish immune systems, so this is all conjecture/extrapolation, but in humans, oral vaccines (e.g. Sabin polio vaccine) are live attenuated vaccines used to elicit mucosal immunity to enteric viruses. There are also nasal flu vaccines, also live attenuated. I don't know if a killed oral vaccine given to a fish could elicit an immune response or not, but from my knowledge of human immune response, it seems unlikely. I don't know of any non-injectable killed vaccines, but again, I could be wrong.

From snorvich's comments, fish may develop resistance to individual strains of ich. That tells me that a vaccine may in theory be possible, since fish are to some degree able to fight off or limit infection, but it also says that the immunogenic epitope varies from strain to strain, making a vaccine more difficult, unless you can find a common, protective epitope. For bacteria, this is frequently a binding protein. I have no idea what this would be for a parasite.

 

[alprazo]

An IgA response in humans can inhibit the binding of E. histolytica. It does not prevent infection, but reduces recurrences.

In some cutaneous forms of leishmaniasis the immune system shifts to control the parasite and heal the wound.

Or you could think the other way. The acute immune response causes an intense reaction that creates edematous gills and inhibits the transfer of oxygen. Like acute respiratory distress syndrome from malaria. Tolerance to the antigen might develop. This happens in some cases of giardiasis and in the malaria patients, if they live - though I think sleepydoc could add more to the lung example.

Halothane - it took me a while.

 

[b0bab0ey]

IME, vaccines aren't usually sought after unless there is financial incentive to do so. We would all probably need to buy "fish health insurance" just to afford a Crypto vaccination. Or I'm guessing any fish treated with it would quadruple in price. Sorry to be so negative... but I think we're more likely to see a cure for AIDS and all forms of cancer before a vaccination for Cryptocaryon is developed.

 

[Mrscribbled]

A vaccine cannot be created for parasites. In the dairy industry there are vaccine s for bacteria but they are nothing as effective as a virus vaccine. All the ich vaccine would be is a money making scam to trick mis imformed new hobbyist s to spend their money on junk.. just like garlic extract and uv sterilization.

 

[sleepydoc]

Or you could think the other way. The acute immune response causes an intense reaction that creates edematous gills and inhibits the transfer of oxygen. Like acute respiratory distress syndrome from malaria. Tolerance to the antigen might develop. This happens in some cases of giardiasis and in the malaria patients, if they live - though I think sleepydoc could add more to the lung example.

Wasn't aware that that was the pathophysiology in the gills - raises some options for managing an acute infection. If the distress comes from an acute inflammatory response, it is possible that attenuating that response could temporize the symptoms and buy time for treatment. I have no idea what this would be, unfortunately. Anti-inflammatories like corticosteroids have been tried in human ARDS without success, but this is a different animal. (pun intended)

Also I've seen many people advocate raising the temperature in the mistaken belief that it will help. A higher temperature reduces the amount of dissolved O2 in the water and would likely serve to increase the respiratory distress for the fish. If anything, decreasing the temperature would help.

Tangs are known to use more O2 than other fish - I wonder if their susceptibility to ich is related to this?

Halothane - it took me a while.

:spin2:

IME, vaccines aren't usually sought after unless there is financial incentive to do so. ... Or I'm guessing any fish treated with it would quadruple in price. Sorry to be so negative...

I feel kind of negative, too, but unfortunately I think you're probably right, given the limited size of the marine fish market. On the other hand, if you could treat or prevent ich by feeding a special food for 2-3 weeks, I think a lot of people would pay extra for that. Given the life cycle of ich, even if immunity wasn't lasting, 6 weeks would be enough.

A vaccine cannot be created for parasites. In the dairy industry there are vaccine s for bacteria but they are nothing as effective as a virus vaccine. All the ich vaccine would be is a money making scam to trick mis imformed new hobbyist s to spend their money on junk.. just like garlic extract and uv sterilization.

Plenty of scams around in the hobby. The problem with ich is it cycles naturally, and can be harbored asymptomatically. Many people decide to try to live with it rather than eradicate it. Garlic may be helpful in that regard. UV sterilization can help with ich - if you're trying to prevent spread between tanks (i.e. commercial systems) People mistakenly take that to mean it will help with a single home tank.

 

[daisy002]

I really appreciate all the great replies! Yes, IgA antibodies are what I was thinking about. Antibodies within the secretions of the fish for creating an immune response to the pathogen. From my studies, I've concluded that while it is a parasite it is also considered a pathogen. This has actually been achieved in groupers, sorry to shoot all the negative nancies down...

As for a cure for AIDS, yes, this has been achieved in two patients I believe (as far as they can tell so far). But the question becomes, "Is this type of treatment worth the cure vs. management?" For curing all types of cancers, I think that is a longshot. This is an easier thing to do than regulating growth mechanisms within a cell.

Nope, this would definitely not be an economical thing to do in the least, and you are right about having to purchase some type of health insurance for your tank, LOL- and that would possibly be the ultimate scam. So, perhaps, we are doomed either way.

This question was for a research proposal in my immunology class. My teacher said he really liked the report, and we talked about the subject for a little while. I was thinking of the Sabin vaccine as well, Sleepydoc. I really think its possible, but I'm not sure if an oral version would be feasible. One of the biggest issues would be culturing the organism, as that has yet to be done in a laboratory without live specimens to carry it.