Cupramine Copper Questions

[snake42490]

I am using Cupramine Copper and had a couple of questions about the product.

I have 4 tangs right now in QT, each are in separate tanks. The two tanks that I have the copper level at about .35 they are doing great and eating. The two tanks that I have around .45 to .5 they aren't eating. The fish will attack the food, but then spit it out. I have checked using the seachem test kit and it's definitely not over the .5.

(I know for a fact these fish had ich and flukes coming in. I had some green chromis in with the one tang that died from Uronema Marinum so I am just assuming that the one tang has it as well)


1) Do you guys wait a while and see if the fish adjusts to the copper level and starts eating or do you immediately drop the level?

2) All of the tangs have stopped wanting greens since introducing the copper, however they are attacking brine and mysis. Does this seem like a concern for the short amount of time in treatment not having them eat seaweed?

3) I know 12 days is plenty of time for getting rid of ich because of the life cycle, but is 12 days in copper enough time for the other parasites ( Velvet, Ich, Flukes, Uronema Marinum)

4) How many days in copper would you recommend for a fish with Uronema Marinum

5) I have made 10 gallon marks on my tanks so I know how much water is in them for treatment, do you see any issue in just dosing the tank to that line and getting the desired level then leaving it through treatment as long as I top off water daily? I don't see how the copper could fluctuate once it reaches the desired level! These are in bare bottom tanks with only pvc pipe fittings.

6) What is the lowest dose that cupramine is still effective?


Thanks guys!

 

[HumbleFish]

1) Do you guys wait a while and see if the fish adjusts to the copper level and starts eating or do you immediately drop the level?

I'll wait a couple of days, but then I start dropping the copper in .05 increments (per day). I keep doing this until the fish eats, even if it means going below the minimal effective concentration of 0.35 mg/L. I'll then slowly raise it to 0.4 (I like having a buffer) once the fish resumes eating, but if the fish stops eating a second time then I figure copper just ain't for him. You also have to remember to reset the "treatment clock" every time you go below 0.35 and then come back up.

2) All of the tangs have stopped wanting greens since introducing the copper, however they are attacking brine and mysis. Does this seem like a concern for the short amount of time in treatment not having them eat seaweed?

My "pet theory" is that nori absorbs a little bit of the copper, making it taste bad to them. They'll be fine without it for 30 days.

3) I know 12 days is plenty of time for getting rid of ich because of the life cycle, but is 12 days in copper enough time for the other parasites ( Velvet, Ich, Flukes, Uronema Marinum)

When I use copper, I treat with it for 30 days. That time frame should cover most parasites and their life cycles.

5) I have made 10 gallon marks on my tanks so I know how much water is in them for treatment, do you see any issue in just dosing the tank to that line and getting the desired level then leaving it through treatment as long as I top off water daily? I don't see how the copper could fluctuate once it reaches the desired level! These are in bare bottom tanks with only pvc pipe fittings.

You can do that, but it's still a good idea to test. Snorvich recommends testing your Cu level every night.

A question you didn't ask, but I feel it's important to know, is how fast to bring up your Cu level. I know the Cupramine directions say to do it over 2 doses within 48 hours. But I think it's better to do it over 3-4 days, adding a little each day. Maybe even longer when dealing with a copper sensitive species, such as an angel or puffer. Of course, sometimes you have no choice but to roll the dice, and raise the copper level ASAP - like when dealing with Velvet or Uronema. But when using it for prophylactic reasons, raising it slowly can oftentimes alleviate the appetite suppression issues.

 

[Dmorty217]

You should try to make sure the fish are eating and eating well before treating.

1. I would wait but only a couple of days to see if they start eating if not drop the levels

2. Wouldn't be concerned by the lack of eating greens. If they are eating vitamin enriched mysis they will be fine. ( I have 4 tangs, only one of which eats seaweed)

3.not sure? But. Flukes need to be treated with a product like prazipro, copper won't get rid of the flukes

4.? Hopefully someone like MRTuskfish who has a ton of knowledge with ich and other diseases and cupramine specifically will chime in

5. Seems logical but you might end up with ammonia issues that way, with less water changes

6. I use half of what they recommend and just treat longer, seems to stress the fish less

 

[coral_lagoon]

If water parameters checks out ok. The fish should be eating in a couple of days. This is normal IMO that fish stop eating when dosing cupramine. Even with Prazipro, the fish will stop eating for a couple of days or so..

 

[snake42490]

Well the powder brown does not seem to like copper at all. First time he started freaking out and spazzing and then just laid flat on the bottom. I removed copper for two days and put him back in clean salt water. Started eating again a day later. I have now added a half dose again and he ate, but was very picky for the day that I put it in. Now day two of the half dose he has no interest in food. He isn't picking or anything.. I'm going to wait until tomorrow, I have a feeling if I can't get him to eat at half dose I don't stand a chance at full dose. I did a test and the copper isn't even at .25

 

[coral_lagoon]

Well the powder brown does not seem to like copper at all. First time he started freaking out and spazzing and then just laid flat on the bottom. I removed copper for two days and put him back in clean salt water. Started eating again a day later. I have now added a half dose again and he ate, but was very picky for the day that I put it in. Now day two of the half dose he has no interest in food. He isn't picking or anything.. I'm going to wait until tomorrow, I have a feeling if I can't get him to eat at half dose I don't stand a chance at full dose. I did a test and the copper isn't even at .25

When I quarantined a Fowleri tang . The first time I administered Cupramine, he darted around acting very skiddish the first two days. After about three days later he settled down,and started to eat. One week later he was swimming around in the full therapeutic dosage of cupramine like it was nothing. Yeah some fish do take it differently. With Prazipro I find that Triggerfish are most sensitive to it. Where's Angelfish do very well..

 

[snake42490]

Hhmm, check out this video... something is definitely going on with my tang tonight. Besides the stress lines, he was like that from the get go. Anyway, Look at the red patch forming by sword on his tail. You might need to jump around on the video.. Looking at it close it has a white patch on it.. Honestly the best way to describe it is a freaking zit on the fish with red around it. ***This is for sure not ich , I have done the 12 day tank transfer already***


Do you think is from copper? Or am I dealing with a parasite or bacteria?


Look around 1:37 in the video on. You can't see the white nodule that I'm talking about, but you can see the red. The red area on the fish is raised. You can also see the red from the other side even though there is no mark there.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43908624/2013-04-09 00.13.51.mp4

 

[HumbleFish]

Was this tang in the same QT as the chromis w/Uronema?

 

[sleepydoc]

Re: your first post, I would take it slow and test frequently. In the past, I've found the dosing on the cupramine bottle to be a bit aggressive. I'm dosing a 29 gal QT now and have put in 2/3~3/4 of the recommended dose and per the seachem test the Cu level is already up at 0.5~0.6 ppm.

 

[snake42490]

Yes Humblefish, this was the powder brown that was in with the green chromes. I was wondering if this appears to be Uronema.

 

[HumbleFish]

Yes Humblefish, this was the powder brown that was in with the green chromes. I was wondering if this appears to be Uronema.

Uronema is usually only seen in chromis, but it is a possibility to consider. Could also be the beginnings of an infection of some sort, probably bacterial. Maybe even internal. I've found it's difficult to know just when is the right time to pull the trigger on antibiotics. Because a lot of times a fish's immune system will fight off an infection naturally. But then sometimes a fish will die suddenly from what looks to be a minor infection, and you're left wondering if you should have started antibiotics sooner. Sorry... I know my rambling isn't helping. Is he eating nori? If so, you could try soaking that in some vitamins to boost his immune system. See how that goes. Being he's already in copper and hasn't responded well to that, I'm hesitant to recommend antibiotics just yet as that will probably just further suppress his appetite.

 

[snake42490]

He hasn't ate in two days now being in copper and as of yesterday I saw this zit looking mark by the fin. I think today I am going to take him out of copper and try something else.
I didn't realize copper wasn't the drug of choice for Uronema.. I'm going to try formalin and see how that goes then put him in a clean sanitized tank after. I know he will start eating within a day. Look at my other thread and maybe you could help with the formalin concentration calculations.. I think I have it, but want to double check. It's the last post

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2282064