Cupramine in a display tank with live rock and DSB

[r0cksteady]

Hi All,

The situation is ive upgraded to a larger tank 8ftx2.5x2.5 which is cycled and running with all my corals\inverts. Now before I move all my fish over the next few weeks I thought I could take advantage of not having inverts left in the old 6ft display which has all the fish a DSB and live rock still in it and treat for whitespot etc with Cupramine.

Now according to the below description and Q&Q listed on their website im lead to believe that I can treat with both the sand and the rock still in the tank. Is this correct?
_____________________________________

Cupramine - Product Description

Cupramineâ„¢ effectively eradicates Oodinium, Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, Ichthyophthirius, and other ectoparasites of both freshwater and marine fish. It is superior to copper sulfate, chloride & citrate: it is non-acidic, less toxic to fish, remains in solution, and does not contaminate the filter bed. It is superior to chelates: it is fully charged (ionic), active at low concentrations, and is removable with carbon.


Q: Will the Cupramine kill nitrifying bacteria in the filter? I used it to treat the parasite problem in a 20g quarantine tank. Three days later, I tested the ammonia level, and it was about 0.5 ppm. The copper level was about 0.25 ppm, and the nitrite level was about 0ppm.

A: Cupramine may slightly retard the bacteria but overall it is safe to use and won't adversely affect the nitrifying bacteria. The reading of ammonia you're getting is most likely a false reading because Cupramine contains an organic amine which is very similar to ammonia in structure and the test kit is likely not able to distinguish between the two. You could try our MultiTest: Free and Total Ammonia test which does not have this issue and will not give a false positive... or you can use our Ammonia Alert which works on the same principal and will show only free ammonia.


Q: I have added Cupramine to my reef tank. I pulled all of my corals out and treated it once. I was told that if I added copper to my tank that I wouldn't be able to put my corals back in and that the copper would contaminate my filter bed and stick to the silicone seams. Is that correct and how should I remove the Cupramine from my tank? And should I treat it a second time?

A: Our Cupramine is the only copper based remedy of it's kind on the market as this technology is very unique to our company. This copper based remedy is complexed to an organic (amine), hence the name Cupramine. This complex is very stable in water, meaning it is the least likely of all the copper remedies to "stick" to a gravel bed or live rock. I am not aware of any copper that sticks to silicon seals. It is also very easy to remove with carbon as this copper remedy is complexed to an organic and carbon readily removes organic material. We also manufacture Cuprisorb for copper removal. This product is very aggressive at removing copper based remedies (as well as other heavy metals). This resin will change colors as it removes copper and is regenerable. Continue to regenerate and use this product until you do not see the resin change color for a week. By then, most/all of the copper should be removed from your system. You can make sure of this by testing with our MultiTest Copper test kit.
Considering that you have already added Cupramine to your reef aquarium, I would definitely follow the instructions (2 doses 2 days apart). The instructions are based on gallons (1 ml per 10 gallons). Be sure to estimate the correct amount of gallons in your aquarium for proper dosing. If your aquarium is a typical reef with a lot of rock, you have displaced some of the gallons of your aquarium. Given that you have dosed your aquarium once with Cupramine, I would test the level of copper to figure out what level you currently have. Ex., If you have dosed 3 ml and come out with .25 ppm of copper, you know dosing another 3 ml will raise the level another .25 ppm for a total of .50 ppm, which is the recommended concentration for this product. Keep in mind that this product is still effective as low as .20 ppm and generally safe for fish up to .80 ppm, but we recommend .50 ppm as the ideal level. You can also use GarlicGuard in the food to help enhance the immune system of the fish. If the fish have trouble eating, this product will also act as an appetite stimulant. GarlicGuard can be used in conjunction with Cupramine.

 

[RBU1]

Well I would not do it....

I understand what it states but if you call Seachem they might tend to give different advice.

You can do it but the copper level will be so hard to maintain because the rock and sand will keep sucking it in. The you will just have to run cuprisorb and carbon for an extended period to make sure its all out.

Like I said I would not chance it. In your case I think Hypo might make more sense. Just make sure you have a calibrated refractometer and keep the specific gravity at 1.008.

 

[r0cksteady]

Thanks for the feedback. If I ran the specific gravity at 1.008 wouldnt that kill my DSB and cause a spike in ammonia etc?

 

[RBU1]

Thanks for the feedback. If I ran the specific gravity at 1.008 wouldnt that kill my DSB and cause a spike in ammonia etc?

Yes it very well could.

But that could also happen with copper. Copper will kill inverts that live in the sand bed.

If there is nothing in the tank I would not be concerned with a cycle. Odds are the sand bed will not be live when you are done with either treatment.

 

[LargeAngels]

Don't do either Hypo or copper with DSB and Live rock. You will most likely have a huge ammonia spike (from all the dead inverts) which will be worse for the fish than ich. Remove all sand and live rock and then treat.

 

[RBU1]

There's no fish if I understood.

 

[hottuna]

everything I've ever read about copper treatment says NO - to any type of calcerous sand or rock being present...

 

[r0cksteady]

Sorry to clarify the tank has all of my fish in it with rock and sand. Im planning on throwing away\selling everything in the tank except the fish which will be moving accross to my new upgrade.
I thought rather than just move them across I may as well treat for whitespot as I have a few tangs who show occasional signs of it.
So your all saying I shouldnt treat the old display? I dont care about die off and loosing any life in the DSB\Live Rock but what I do care about is causing a spike and loosing my fish.

 

[RBU1]

Sorry to clarify the tank has all of my fish in it with rock and sand. Im planning on throwing away\selling everything in the tank except the fish which will be moving accross to my new upgrade.
I thought rather than just move them across I may as well treat for whitespot as I have a few tangs who show occasional signs of it.
So your all saying I shouldnt treat the old display? I dont care about die off and loosing any life in the DSB\Live Rock but what I do care about is causing a spike and loosing my fish.

I guess I was a little confused....Do not treat you current main tank with the rock and sand in it.

How hard would it be to siphon out the sand and remove most of the rock?

 

[LargeAngels]

If you treat fish as is then most likely you will have a huge die off and an ammonia spike. Take the rock and sand out then treat, if you are going to treat. If you have nowhere to put the rock then just get a plastic garbage can or barell and keep it in there with a power head until you get rid of it.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Copper and hypo (gradual) does not harm nitrification bacteria significantly, but either will harm higher invertebrates.

When dieoff occurs, there will be ammonia surge that even healthy bacteria cannot handle, unless the aquarist takes action in advance to overcome it.

 

[r0cksteady]

Thanks guys, advice noted.

If I did remove the rock and sand would I not cause a spike in just trying to remove the stuff even if I did get it via Siphon?

 

[wooden_reefer]

everything I've ever read about copper treatment says NO - to any type of calcerous sand or rock being present...

Don't believe everything you read, or one cannot have read all sources.

I pulse straight copper repeatedly in a calcareous envirnoment. There are also possibly valid reasons not to.

I think it is a matter of technical efficiency vs a combination of efficiency and ease of compliance, hence treatment over a long QT period.

 

[Makenna]

After having read you post, I has hesitant to post my response, as the procedure I went through woudl be considered unorthodox and 'crazy' by many that might read it on here. But, it does apply to your specifc question, so I will share my experience.

Not to long ago I had ich outbreak in a very large, 400+ gallon tank with a ton of rock. I had gone through QT with all of my fish, but for whatever reason, it showed up. I was not willing to remove all of that rock to put the fish in QT again, because although I could catch the big fish, the lil guys woudl be a nightmare.

Anyhow, I removed all inverts, including coral, and put them in other tanks.

I dosed the DT, with all rock in sand with Cupramine per the suggested dose over 3 days. Once I got it to .5ppm, I tested the Cu every 48 hours. As you woudl expect, the rock/sand did absorb the Cu, and I had to add to it quite often. I lost track of how much above the normal does was added, I just maintained .5 or a bit less for 4 weeks.

I will also say that there was a die off after the first day of Cu being added. I assume it was mainly microfauna. The skimmer is oversized for this tank, and I watched for ammonia every 12 hours. I never had a noticeable spike in ammonia, bot again, this is a large tank. After 4 days, the cloudiness went away and was never an issue after.

After this period of time, I hooked up carbon in a reactor as well as Cuprisorb. I changed out the cuprisorb as the resin changed color. After 3-4 weeks I testeeed for Cu, and the test read zero. I let it run as such for a few more weeks, still tested zero. So, after nearly 2 months of no longer dosing the cupramine, I put the clean up crew back in, and some hardy corals (rics). None showed signs of issuse.

At this time, I have inverts back in the tank.

All of this being said, I cannot reccomend this to anyone for a couplf of reasons. Most will not the have the patience or commitment to testing every coupel of days ans then waiting 2 months after. Secondly, because I have other tanks, i was fully prepared to have a FO tank if I coudl not remove it.

So, to answer your question, can it be done, yes. Is it worth the risk, guess you have to decide that.

HTH

 

[RBU1]

After having read you post, I has hesitant to post my response, as the procedure I went through woudl be considered unorthodox and 'crazy' by many that might read it on here. But, it does apply to your specifc question, so I will share my experience.

Not to long ago I had ich outbreak in a very large, 400+ gallon tank with a ton of rock. I had gone through QT with all of my fish, but for whatever reason, it showed up. I was not willing to remove all of that rock to put the fish in QT again, because although I could catch the big fish, the lil guys woudl be a nightmare.

Anyhow, I removed all inverts, including coral, and put them in other tanks.

I dosed the DT, with all rock in sand with Cupramine per the suggested dose over 3 days. Once I got it to .5ppm, I tested the Cu every 48 hours. As you woudl expect, the rock/sand did absorb the Cu, and I had to add to it quite often. I lost track of how much above the normal does was added, I just maintained .5 or a bit less for 4 weeks.

I will also say that there was a die off after the first day of Cu being added. I assume it was mainly microfauna. The skimmer is oversized for this tank, and I watched for ammonia every 12 hours. I never had a noticeable spike in ammonia, bot again, this is a large tank. After 4 days, the cloudiness went away and was never an issue after.

After this period of time, I hooked up carbon in a reactor as well as Cuprisorb. I changed out the cuprisorb as the resin changed color. After 3-4 weeks I testeeed for Cu, and the test read zero. I let it run as such for a few more weeks, still tested zero. So, after nearly 2 months of no longer dosing the cupramine, I put the clean up crew back in, and some hardy corals (rics). None showed signs of issuse.

At this time, I have inverts back in the tank.

All of this being said, I cannot reccomend this to anyone for a couplf of reasons. Most will not the have the patience or commitment to testing every coupel of days ans then waiting 2 months after. Secondly, because I have other tanks, i was fully prepared to have a FO tank if I coudl not remove it.

So, to answer your question, can it be done, yes. Is it worth the risk, guess you have to decide that.

HTH

That is a great story and thank you for sharring it. I don't think anyone is going to say its crazy. You were willing to take the chance and it looks like it paid off for you. That is great.....

My question would be how did ich get into your system if you do QT everything? Do you have any thoughts or ideas?

 

[Makenna]

I am not sure, it could have been that I didnt keep one fish in QT long enough, perhaps the Cu level in QT at some point was not high enough. I have also considered cross contamination of some sort with my other tanks.

At this time I have seperate everythings for my tanks. Feeding nets, regular nets, etc.....

 

[RBU1]

I am not sure, it could have been that I didnt keep one fish in QT long enough, perhaps the Cu level in QT at some point was not high enough. I have also considered cross contamination of some sort with my other tanks.

At this time I have seperate everythings for my tanks. Feeding nets, regular nets, etc.....

That is interesteing. I thought cross contamination, although possible was less of a risk then introducing ich on an invert. Something I guess we should always consider. I would think that the copper being at the improper level would be a better possibility. I am waiting on my copper colorimeter to arrive that will hopefully help me with that issue.

You should have seperate water change buckets that are only used on one system, pumps, nets everything......

 

[Stuart60611]

I too have dosed cupramine in my 125 display with both the rock and sandbed present. A couple of things to note. My display is a fowlr and has no inverts or coral. My rock is almost exclusively baserock, and my sandbed is a shallow 1/4 inch bed. As a consequence, I did not have any major fauna die off and resulting ammonia spike. I had to dose the equivolent dosage for 500 gallons to reach and maintain the .5 level on my estimated 140 gallon water volume (sump/refugium included). Once my rock and substrate became saturated, curpramine level remained constant at .5. It took about 1 week to stabalize cupramine level at .5 without having to add additional cupramine each day. I lost no fish as a result (all fish in my signature went through this treatment, including both puffers). I maintained .5 level consistently for over 4 weeks (tested copper level at least 2 times a day with both seachem and saifert test kits). During treatment, I did no water changes, did not skim, and used no chemical filtration. After treatment period ended, I did three 30 gallon water changes spaced 2 days apart. I then used cuprisorb for about 2 weeks and left some additional cuprisorb in the sump for several months to remove residual copper. Fish tolerated the treatment well and ate thorughout the treatment period and have shown no signs of ich (not a single spot or flashing) after treatment concluded. Treatment ended about 6 months ago. Fish remain healthy. No detectable copper in the system. Have plenty of pods in the tank and some algae.

Dosing cupramine in the display can be done, but it requires some very careful planing and monitoring. I think a big reason I did not have any ammonia spike is I added live bacteria (prodibio) several days before starting cupramine and every other day thereafter for the first week to deal with any ammonia. Plus, my fauna in the system before the cupramine addition was not particularly developed. I continued to add prodibio weekly thereafter to make up for poor water quality from not skimming nor performing any water changes during the treatment period. I also removed my chaeto from the system during treatment.

 

[Makenna]

Interesting that you bring up the Prodibio fact. To that point, I continued my Zeovit basic dosing through the period also, so, like you, I had a constant influx of bacteria into the system.

Also like you, 75% of my rock is 'marco Rock', that is calceous, but not originally live.

Some very simliar points here that may suggest a way to do such a treatment.

 

[Stuart60611]

Interesting that you bring up the Prodibio fact. To that point, I continued my Zeovit basic dosing through the period also, so, like you, I had a constant influx of bacteria into the system.

Also like you, 75% of my rock is 'marco Rock', that is calceous, but not originally live.

Some very simliar points here that may suggest a way to do such a treatment.

I am not, as you can see from the other posting in this thread, alone in being able to sucessfully treat the display with cupramine. I know others who have done so also and within 1 year of doing so able to maintain corals and inverts in their systems (cupramine is especially good in this regard because it is more removable than other coppers).

However, treating the display with cupramine is an extremely risky, unpredictable, and potentially difficult process which can very often result in complete disaster. Obviously, all inverts possible and all corals must be removed from the display first which may or may not be feasible. For sure, the more developed the fauna in the system the more likely a major ammonia spike. Now the ammonia spike MAY be able to be managed simply, as I believe I did and you are apparently doing, by adding bacteria to the system. But in other tanks with more developed fauna, such as lots of worms, etc., there is high probability that bacterial additions will not be enough. Under these circumstances, you would have to be on the spot and ready to rapidly remove as much of the dying fauna as you can and/or do some major water changes and readditions of cupramine to get the ammonia under control fast.

Every tank will be very different in this regard. Although you can make an educated guess as to how developed your system's fauna is in an attempt to get a vague view of the potential for disaster, you really cannot do so with any comfortable accuracy. Likewise, there is no way to predict when the ammonia will start spiking, nor for how long the major die off will last. Moreover, there is no way to predict how much water you will have to change, nor how fast the changes much occur to keep up with the ammonia spike in your particular system. If you can't keep up, fish die.