Cupramine toxicity?

[sdunkin]

I have a flame angel who has been in cupramine treatment for 2 weeks at the .5 dosage (brought up slowly over a 10 day period), he's been eating/acting great for the entire treatment time until today. Right now he is acting severely disoriented and breathing heavily. He was acting perfectly fine 24 hours ago, which is making me wonder if maybe he's having an adverse reaction to the copper?

I did have some evaporation on the tank, more than I normally do, but all of my other fish in qt are acting perfectly fine. Other fish include a rabbitfish, kole tang, royal gramma, 2 banggai cardinals, 2 perc clowns, and a starry blenny. Ammonia is at 0 according to the ammonia alert badge.

I did a 15g water change, and put an AC70 full of carbon on the tank. QT is a 40bdr with a sponge filter, a long air stone, and a koralia one. Temps have been stable at 78*. Fish have not been treated with any other meds or ammonia reducers.

Any input in the matter will be greatly appreciated. It makes me so upset that a fish that looked so healthy just 24 hours ago suddenly looks like he won't make it the night.

 

[humaguy]

Cupramine is very, very hard on centropyge...
how long was it between getting up to .5 and her reaction?
did you stop using Prime or any similar product (ammonia binding agent) while the cupramine was in tank?
Good luck...

 

[MrTuskfish]

Cupramine is very, very hard on centropyge...
how long was it between getting up to .5 and her reaction?
did you stop using Prime or any similar product (ammonia binding agent) while the cupramine was in tank?
Good luck...

+1
Flames are usually very copper sensitive. Cupramine at .30 (rather than .50ppm) is effective and generally tolerated by most fish. What are you doing for ammonia control, the symptoms you describe sound like it is possibly an ammonia issue, because the Flame has been doing well so far. Evaporation, like you're experiencing, is a problem with all meds. When evaporation occurs, concentration of meds rises. Its also important to add copper to the make-up water before adding it to the tank; or you have the opposite problem. Lots of good info on Cupramine here, the FAQ are great. (
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html)
FWIW; I have been a big fan of Cupramine for years. But when practical, I think TT is a better method of treating/curing ich. Its foolproof. I'm also starting to like CP; but I suspect there is some "watered down" (junkies will understand, when they have their brief moments of clarity) on the market.

 

[sdunkin]

No prime or anything of that sorts have ever been in the tank. Tank is cycled with a mature sponge filter and a few pieces of live rock (maybe 2lbs worth). I've been doing 10g water changes every 3-4 days too, just to make sure ammonia wasn't an issue. My ammonia alert badge has stayed yellow over the entire 3 week period. The angel has been in .5 cupramine for 2 weeks, which was reached over a 10 day period.

He's still alive at the moment, but struggling even worse than last night. Alternating between laying on his side and attempting to swim.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I'd remove Cu ASAP with WCs, carbon & Cuprisorb; or, better still, a 100% WC. If he survives; I'd treat with CP or TT. In most cases, when Cu is used and a fish is lost; the Cu will always be blamed. IMO, the Cu is usually not the total cause (if at all) ; but with Flames, it certainly could be. LA is a real advocate of avoiding copper and Flames, the only fish the have this warning for (I think).http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

 

[Dmorty217]

+1^ get the flame out of the cupramine ASAP

 

[sdunkin]

Surprisingly enough, the flame is still alive.

I've done a bunch of water changes and have ran 2 big bags of carbon, but I'm still getting a reading of 0.1 copper. Planning on doing another 50% water change tonight and retesting.

He looks really rough though. Scales raised in a few spots and some torn fins (he got stuck on the koralia in the tank, which has sense been turned off). Seems much more oriented with swimming, but is only staying towards the top of the tank.

 

[dkanka]

Ammonia is at 0 according to the ammonia alert badge. (

I would suggest testing ammonia with test kits instead of just the badge. I have had the Seachem ammonia badges give me a 0 reading while my test kit gave a much higher reading. I know there are warnings that cupramine can cause a false positive and the ammonia badges should be trusted instead, but I have had the badges show 0 ammonia while I tested much higher without cupramine in the system. It was not a case of the badge being too old either.