Current trends in the sump ?

C

Clowning_Around

New member
So I'm a bit puzzeled by something my LFS has repeated now by several of its employees. That being, that doing a refugium is more of the old way of doing things and that it is no longer the recommended direction. I can't help but wonder if this is a indirect means to push sales with say reactors. I noticed many on these forums using refugiums, perhaps thats simply a carryover from existing systems and users comfort levels with tried and true practices. But I'm also wondering if there is something more to it that I'm overlooking. I've structured my sump such that I can introduce one if I so choose but currently do not plan on it. Now I'm second guessing it due to the benefit of things like copepods to feed the inhabitants of my DT... Anyway, I suppose the reason for my post is for someone to enlighten me on the subject. I know I should have asked the LFS employees that reiterated this comment to explain this better, but what they did say was there are many ways to do a setup and theres nothing wrong with going the fuge route, its just not there goto rec'.

So what's your opinions, I'm curious?

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I guess personally I still see the benefits of running a refugium and plan to incorporate one. Maybe next time you go there you could ask them to go into detail and explain there reasoning. You can still run both so not sure why they would skip one. Im just as lost as you are on this one.
 
For growing purely chaeto it is hard to beat the new reactors, but even if I had a reactor I would want to incorporate a refugium for pod growth.
 
thegrun said:
For growing purely chaeto it is hard to beat the new reactors, but even if I had a reactor I would want to incorporate a refugium for pod growth.
Click to expand...

This is how I see it. I guess for people running zeovit and/or UV sterilisers, growing chaeto and/or keeping a refugium for pods is redundant?
 
It would be interesting to know what they replaced the refugium with or at least what they did with the space it would have used. I for one, cannot grow chaeto for anything. So instead I used the same space and I have about 55 pounds of rock in it. No light, just rock.
 
There are always new things to sell. This rarely means the old things are bad. As with many hobbies, there are a million "right" ways and lots of room for personal preference and variation.

It is important to separate functions from equipment. Equipment is a means to an end. The function is the important thing. You don't need a refugium or a skimmer or a reactor. Those are all just physical things. What you need is nutrient export and/or processing capabilities.
 
der_wille_zur_macht said:
There are always new things to sell. This rarely means the old things are bad. As with many hobbies, there are a million "right" ways and lots of room for personal preference and variation.

It is important to separate functions from equipment. Equipment is a means to an end. The function is the important thing. You don't need a refugium or a skimmer or a reactor. Those are all just physical things. What you need is nutrient export and/or processing capabilities.
Click to expand...

I would agree, but when I counted the different right ways, I only got to 0. I am really not being critical (trying to be funny) but I would call those "right" ways "preferred" ways and I still only got to 514,618. More than 400,000 short of a million

I have never used a refugium. The main purpose is to export NO3 and PO4 and I accomplish that with by dosing carbon and using an ATS<
 
hkgar said:
I would agree, but when I counted the different right ways, I only got to 0. I am really not being critical (trying to be funny) but I would call those "right" ways "preferred" ways and I still only got to 514,618. More than 400,000 short of a million

I have never used a refugium. The main purpose is to export NO3 and PO4 and I accomplish that with by dosing carbon and using an ATS<
Click to expand...
Ok noobness revealation here, whats ATS?

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sump

sump

i'm one that can't grow cheato either , whats up with that? but then I can't grow coral either!!:headwallblue:
 
What is a refugium?

I'll paraphrase J. Sprung by saying it is a volume separate, but in line with, the display tank used for performing functions that cannot, or would be undesirable to, occur in the display tank. That's it. By definition, what those functions are is not self-evident. Some uses for refugiums are nutrient export, livestock time-outs, coral propagation, housing individuals or densities of species incompatible with the main tank, denitrification, etc.

Because it can perform one or more functions, it is hard to criticize whether a refugium is helpful or efficacious. It is however easy to discuss whether growing macroalgae is useful for export, and whether a reactor (cylinder with full water turnover) is better than in a sump partition (cube with partial water turnover). Whatever the answer, it cannot invalidate refugiums, only specific uses for refugiums.

I am fairly sure that for many functions, something other than a typical cubic refugium is better. So sure, we can have a sulfur denitrator and a cheato reactor and a frag tank and a pod breeding tank and so on... But then again, a fish holding tank can be better at growing fish and a frag tank can be better at growing coral, but there is something about doing multiple functions well enough that gives me satisfaction when looking at my display tank. Likewise, a partition in my sump that is performing multiple functions well enough makes me happy.

So aside from the old question of whether or not to add the third baffling for a fuge, the other trends are sockless (and similarly), roller mats. Some recent evidence suggests that socks need to be changed out very frequently, so some are ditching because the small-to-no effect of less-frequent sock changes on nutrients don't seem to be worth the hassle. Some are going further by adding roller mats. These physically filter organic material and actually remove it from the water column, without manual intervention.

Oh, and ATSes as mentioned above.
 
Clowning_Around said:
Ok noobness revealation here, whats ATS?

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Click to expand...

An algae turf scrubber is similar in concept to growing macro algae in a refugium or reactor. In both cases, you're trying to promote growth of algae in order to lock up nutrients and eventually remove them from the system when the algae is harvested. A turf scrubber, like a reactor, is a very focused piece of equipment designed for the sole purpose of maximizing growth of a very specific type of algae. Turf scrubbers promote the growth of turf (hair) algae, typically by providing strong light and flow around a substrate - usually a piece of plastic mesh mat.

Like JZ alluded to, it's unfortunate when people say things like "which is better - a refugium or an algae reactor?" A refugium is often used to grow macro algae for nutrient export, but it is just as often performing many other functions, sometimes totally unintentionally. There are even refugiums out there that don't have any macro algae in them. Turf scrubbers and algae reactors, on the other hand, are generally only performing the single designed function. If they're designed and maintained correctly, they can absolutely do that one specific function very well, but that's about it.

I find the "xyz versus refugium" argument about as relevant as someone saying, "which is better? Owning a house, or renting a garage?"

Well, if the only thing you're looking for is a place to store a car, either one will do, and certainly the garage is optimized for that purpose. However, owning a house is clearly going to give you a LOT of other functionality, if you choose to take advantage. Outside of the specific function of finding a place to leave your car, there isn't much validity to the comparison. So, imagine now you went to a real estate agent (LFS) and they told you, "no one is owning homes (refugiums) any more, the new trend is renting garages (turf scrubbers/reactors)." You'd look at them like they had two heads, and rightly so. It's a sentence that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
 
Thankyou all, good info here. I wasnt familiar at all with an ATS, obviously. It soumds cool, is it as good as some say it is. It might be something I conaider when I do a large build if it means I can avoid an expensive skimmer :)

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The refugium needs to be correctly designed to function well in each system. Since I have 300 gallon system and 180 display a refugium in a ready made sump wouldn't do it. So I took a 40 breeder I had made into a sump for a previous tank cut out some baffles and now it's an awesome refugium for chaeto. It's at least 30 gallons giving me ~10% of my water volume which is commonly recommended. Recently I redid the plumbing feeding the fuge and doubled the flow, this has dramatically improved its performance. I pull out and harvest about 3-5 gallons of chaeto every 2-3 weeks.


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