Cutting carpet

[Kaman8]

Found a video online that people's are cutting carpets . A friend of mine is also doing the same with success many times, but your carpet must be very healthy.

http://youtu.be/jwAkIbBxxeQ

 

[ThRoewer]

The thing that made me cringe was how he used that knife against the hard surface of the tiles. He really needs to use a cutting board.

As for the cutting of the anemone itself – cutting it is one thing but how did both halves look a week later?

I for sure wouldn’t want to risk it.

 

[Kaman8]

The thing that made me cringe was how he used that knife against the hard surface of the tiles. He really needs to use a cutting board.

As for the cutting of the anemone itself "“ cutting it is one thing but how did both halves look a week later?

I for sure wouldn't want to risk it.

My friend have done it many times too, but he didn't make a video and he said he has done it many times with succes. I will ask him if he can make a video next time when he is cutting again and make another video a week later how the carpet is heeling.

 

[geckoejon]

i would be more concerned about the long term success. i read numerous stories from awhile back (a year or 2 ago) where people were getting shipped in gigs that were scarred apparently from being cut before being shipped. the ones i read about eventually died... they can look halfway decent for awhile and slowly fade away...

anyone can cut a carpet. will they survive long term though??? i would be extremely interested to see someone cut a bunch of them and show updated statuses for the next 6 months. to cut and then sell / ship is just plain wrong, imo.

 

[Breadman03]

I saw a lot of what geckoejon saw. It seems like the cut carpets ended up not being able to continue to sustain themselves and would slowly wither after appearing to heal.

 

[addictedreefer]

Why are we having this discussion again. I believe it has clearly been established that this cannot be done. And it stands to reason: Haddoni and gigantea do not reproduce asexually so they do not have the mechanism to split and heal.

 

[tonysi]

I don't know why but when I watched that video my body twinged like when I see a guy get hit in his "frank and beans"..that's gotta be harsh on that anemone.

 

[taylor t]

75 gallon tank. 3 of 6 were cut. I did not cut them, but received them clearly cut prior to me receiving them.
I've had this one for 2 years+ now.

Tank is dark right now, but here's a pic from maybe a few months ago?


Here's another one. Clearly it was cut.




Here's a more recent picture over a year later.


I agree, cutting them in captivity most likely will result in death, but I'm not the only one to have a cut one survive.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2329298

 

[ThRoewer]

I' think it is possible to cut carpets, but the risk is higher than with for example with BTA.
I would also say a cut carpet anemone needs to be fully healed - with that I mean that you can't tell it was cut - before being shipped to someone else.

 

[D-Nak]

I think we need to CLEARLY differentiate between a nem that's been cut in half intentionally, and cut inadvertently -- possibly during collection. And before I continue, I want everyone to understand that I'm not calling anyone a liar, as I truly feel that everyone believes that they are telling the truth. But this truth is based on anecdotal observation and not scientific proof.

As I have said many times before, I have NEVER seen or heard of conclusive evidence of a carpet anemone being cut in half, and both halves surviving long term (over a year). There are far more stories of people claiming to cut their nems -- including video evidence of such -- but not a SINGLE account of success -- meaning photographic or video evidence showing two healing halves, two fully healed anemones showing scars, and finally two fully healed anemones that are thriving.

Obviously anyone with a knife or sharp object can cut an anemone in half. It's almost insulting to show the cutting process but not show what happens after that -- as if we're supposed to believe that the nems survived solely based on successful cutting. If someone really wants to impress me, show me thriving gigs that are living together and producing BABIES that make it through the settlement process. We all know for a fact that carpet anemones produce sexually. We also know that anemones are capable of reproducing asexually. We just don't know if it happens with large carpets. Given all of carpets in the wild, don't you think we'd see at least one photo of one of them splitting? We see it all the time with BTAs and mags.

I do believe that nems that are damaged during collection or while in our care (getting caught in a powerhead, for example) can heal, survive, and even thrive. I've seen quite a few carpets with scars, and evidence of cutting, but I believe that these cuts are more likely the result of careless collection, where the collector tried to pry the nem off of a rock and inadvertently cut it. I believe that taylor t's gigs fall into this category.

One anemone expert told me that she saw cut gigantea in long outdoor raceways while touring a facility overseas, but she never saw healed anemones. I believe that someone was attempting to do this a couple of years ago, and the results were disasterous. The importer has since stopped importing them.

I owned a gig that I believe was cut (either intentially or accidentally) as it has a visible scar and was not the normal shape. Here's the thread:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2289406

It died after about 10 months in my care. It was never a complete circle and never exhibited habits of a normal gig. I conducted a post mortem dissection, and it appeared that the siphonoglyphs never healed properly (the nem was not bilaterally symmetrical as it was supposed to be). In other words, I believe that the nem never had a chance to live long term.

Finally, we really need to ask ourselves (hobbyists or even LFS owners) if this is something we should be doing. I do think that if done correctly -- sliced in half then allowed to heal in ocean pens or in raceways with a supply of fresh seawater -- it may be possible. But we still end up with two healed halves: two nems with half of what they need to survive. I understand the demand of gigs now that we can get them to survive the acclimation process, but cutting them is NOT the answer.

 

[ThRoewer]

I fully agree with you, the goal should be sexual reproduction, not manually splitting.
I don't think this should be something impossible to accomplish. I think the most important factor is a proper simulation of the moon phases as that is likely the synchronizing trigger.

If carpets can survive long term and fully recover after being cut is a good question to ask and I also would like to see evidence of this.

As you pointed out, the cutting itself is really no accomplishment - showing the two halves over the following year would be what is really required to show this works

 

[taylor t]

I believe that these cuts are more likely the result of careless collection, where the collector tried to pry the nem off of a rock and inadvertently cut it. I believe that taylor t's gigs fall into this category..

This is a bit of a stretch. Careless collection? Really? Wow. I'm done.

 

[addictedreefer]

I fully agree with DNak. The key question is whether anyone has documented proof of BOTH halves surviving long term.

 

[D-Nak]

This is a bit of a stretch. Careless collection? Really? Wow. I'm done.

I've never seen someone collect these in the wild, but based on the times I've tried to remove my gigs from rocks, I can easily imagine frustration setting in, and the collector becoming impatient where chiseling the rock starts to occur, and then one hit of the chisel piercing the gig's foot causing a huge laceration. If allowed to heal prior to export, the gig has a good chance of survival, with a scar to show where the injury occurred.

That said, if you tell me that you believe that the cut marks on your gigs are a result of someone cutting them in HALF and they healed, then I will believe you. Since I believe that my gig was cut too, like said I think it is possible, it's just a HUGE stretch.

 

[joshky]

For the average reef enthusiast, cutting these animals is not going to get you anywhere. People have tried and failed a million times, and are lucky to get one half to live for over a year.

I think if you had a pretty large HT with pumped in NSW, your chances of forcing asexual reproduction would go up. But that's not to say I think you could ever achieve close to 100% success rate, I highly doubt it.

 

[addictedreefer]

I've never seen someone collect these in the wild, but based on the times I've tried to remove my gigs from rocks, I can easily imagine frustration setting in, and the collector becoming impatient where chiseling the rock starts to occur, and then one hit of the chisel piercing the gig's foot causing a huge laceration. If allowed to heal prior to export, the gig has a good chance of survival, with a scar to show where the injury occurred.

That said, if you tell me that you believe that the cut marks on your gigs are a result of someone cutting them in HALF and they healed, then I will believe you. Since I believe that my gig was cut too, like said I think it is possible, it's just a HUGE stretch.

Even so, IMO in that situation you only really have a shot of one "half" surviving and only if by chance all essential internal structures remain in tact. The other half may appear to heal but because it is missing internal structures that it cannot regenerate, it eventually wastes away. That is not propagation. That is intentionally maiming your carpet and hoping it is somehow able to heal. You start with one and end up with one.

 

[ThRoewer]

I think the most important question has to be if the cut anemone can ccompletely regenerate the other half and then be cut again. This is obviously the case with Entamaeas (BTAs) and magnificas who split by themselves in the wild and in captivity.

Now, the fact that at least one member of the genus Stichodactyla (S. tapetum) seems to be suitable to be propagated by division (cutting in half) makes it somewhat plausible that this could also apply to other members of the family. But since the large carpets are already tough to just being kept alive under captivity conditions I don't think this should be attempted under aquarium conditions.

In fact I would want to see evidence that both halves of a cut large carpet anemone can survive long term (at a minimum 2 years) and regenerate the missing half completely in the wild (or an outdoor pond with connection to the ocean). After healing and full regeneration you shouldn't be able to tell it was cut.

If it won't regenerate the missing half under ideal (natural habitat) condition I would say large carpets can't be propagated this way.

Even if cutting should prove to be a suitable way to propagate large carpets, I would still say both halves need to be fully regenerated before being shipped or sold. I would consider anything else unethical.

 

[D-Nak]

Even so, IMO in that situation you only really have a shot of one "half" surviving and only if by chance all essential internal structures remain in tact. The other half may appear to heal but because it is missing internal structures that it cannot regenerate, it eventually wastes away. That is not propagation. That is intentionally maiming your carpet and hoping it is somehow able to heal. You start with one and end up with one.

Yes -- I completely agree.

I actually see this happening even with rarer morphs of BTAs. I babysat a friend's lemon drop and flame tip after he cut them and only one half of each survived. So instead of four nems, he ended up with two nems that were half the size of the originals.

 

[addictedreefer]

I think the most important question has to be if the cut anemone can ccompletely regenerate the other half and then be cut again. This is obviously the case with Entamaeas (BTAs) and magnificas who split by themselves in the wild and in captivity.

Now, the fact that at least one member of the genus Stichodactyla (S. tapetum) seems to be suitable to be propagated by division (cutting in half) makes it somewhat plausible that this could also apply to other members of the family. But since the large carpets are already tough to just being kept alive under captivity conditions I don't think this should be attempted under aquarium conditions.

In fact I would want to see evidence that both halves of a cut large carpet anemone can survive long term (at a minimum 2 years) and regenerate the missing half completely in the wild (or an outdoor pond with connection to the ocean). After healing and full regeneration you shouldn't be able to tell it was cut.

If it won't regenerate the missing half under ideal (natural habitat) condition I would say large carpets can't be propagated this way.

Even if cutting should prove to be a suitable way to propagate large carpets, I would still say both halves need to be fully regenerated before being shipped or sold. I would consider anything else unethical.

Big distinction with respect to other members of the stichodactyla genus is that asexual reproduction of those species in the wild is well documented. Simply not so with respect to gigantea, haddoni and mertensi.

 

[ThRoewer]

Yes -- I completely agree.

I actually see this happening even with rarer morphs of BTAs. I babysat a friend's lemon drop and flame tip after he cut them and only one half of each survived. So instead of four nems, he ended up with two nems that were half the size of the originals.

I actually don't like this kind of anemone propagation, not even with species that seem to handle it well.
It's not like with corals or zoas where you separate individual or cluster of polyps from a mother colony.
With anemones you have to cut right through the polyp itself. Too much can go wrong there. Under right conditions magnificas and certain BTAs may split on their own. If they don't do it on their own the conditions may not be right or this particular strain doesn't clone by splitting and forcing it may not work well.

Big distinction with respect to other members of the stichodactyla genus is that asexual reproduction of those species in the wild is well documented. Simply not so with respect to gigantea, haddoni and mertensi.

Do the small ones actually split in half or do they rather propagate by dropping off a small part of their foot?