Cyanobacteria or Dinoflagelettes?

Sorry I cant really speak for Dr Ron, but I dont believe he would've recommended cutting back your lights otherwise it would probably be explained in his article. Depriving the algae of light is temporary at best, the root of the problem needs to be addressed which is most likely excess nutrients. The answers for riding your tank of excess nutrints are explained in the article.
 
In case you havent read the entire thread (which off the cuff it appears as such) the light method was NOT discussed in his article, it was found through other sources where people have encountered the same thing (dinoflagellets) and removing the source of light is the only way to begin treating the problem because once it has started, its too late to save the corals by means of normal "better husbandry skills". Yes, to fully treat the problem, proper nutrient levels need to be assessed and fixed - which was documented in the thread. I'm really trying not to be an @$$ here, but honestly this was covered in the thread and a few posts above.

The article written by Dr Ron was for treating cyanobacteria. What I had was NOT cyanobacteria, or at least not exclusively cyanobacteria. Trust me, I researched my options concerning the light removal, because it wasnt an immediate good option, but it worked, and it got rid of the dinoflagellets long enough for me to fix the problem in our husbandry skills and issues that we were encountering, and all we lost were a few snails (because the dinoflagellets are poisonous in great quantities to algae eaters) and a colony of xenia. Things are back to normal now.

This thread was not created to be a redundant 'red slime' thread, but rather, differntiating between the two, and treating the dinoflagellets. The reason Dr Ron didnt mention the light cutting was that his article was for cyano, not dinoflagellets. The nutritent fixing applies to both though.

And to the other poster - I apologize, I do not have links available for the light cutting ideas, however, I can say that I found it through searching RC (yes, I know how much of a PITA that can be without paying them), google, and a few other forums. It was a commonly accepted way for getting the upperhand on dinoflagellets, and if that is what you have, I'd highly reccomend using the light regiment to your advantage. If you have no corals, or algae eating inverts, then go about the normal red slime treatment with increasing flow, and lowering nutrients, but thats a choice only you can make based on a decision you come about after researching the problem.

I apologize to those who are offended by this message. Graveyardworm, have you ever had an outbreak of dinoflagellets?
 
bump for tekknoschtev and the others that have done the blackout method...do you have an algae status? any signs of it returning, what is your current lighting period, how much carbon, rowa, etc. are you using (if any), how much/many water changes are you doing? how are your corals and overall system health?

i too am dealing with this stuff :(

thanks,
tim
 
Its been however long since we first licked the problem and no sign of it returning. We're doing monthly 20% water changes and the photoperiod is as follows:

Fuge: 21:00-10:00
Actinic: 9:00-22:00
Halides: 10:00-21:00

We havent been running any carbon, phosphate remover, etc. The corals are doing extremely well, and if it wasnt for grape caulerpa and aiptasia, the system would be perfect. We're dealing with both of those now.
 
I change maybe 15% a month, 20 if you include skimmer cups, I guess.
I run carbon 24/7, and purigen though I suspect the latter is a waste. Purigen in a Phosban reactor (also a waste).

I have fuge lights on from 9pm to 10am
VHOs on 11am-9pm (actinics on for half that, 50/50s on other half)
MH on 12-7

Fuge has some cyano but that doesn't count IMO. Display is fine!
 
For me, it took about 2 months of having the lights on for only 2 hours a day. Now my tank looks like it used to. I have feather dusters again, my snails and hermits are much more active. I don't have corals currently so I have not bumped my lighting time any higher but the lights out method was the only thing that worked for to get rid of the dino. It almost drove me out of the hobby because I spent a good half year fighting it. If you have corals, you can't afford to use the lights out method as extremely as me but it was the only thing that worked.
 
well, its been a few months and this algae continues to haunt me! :( i just can't seem to get rid of it. i know of a few others in our reef club that can't get rid of it either.

i've done a couple more tank blackouts and chemi clean treatments and it would continue to appear within 2-5 days. i tried dosing vodka for awhile but some of my corals started to bleach so i stopped. tried a few diff. brands of carbon and it just laughed at me :p added 4 small fighting conchs and they cant keep up.

nitrates are between 2-5ppm (salifert) and phos around .010 (salifert). silicates are undetectable (salifert) and i always measure 0-1 TDS on my RODI. i'm using UV, 750ml of rowa, 3 cups of carbon and ozone stays at 390-400mv. water is extremely clear.

this scourge is capable of growing in ambient room light and i'm running a 3.5hr max MH photoperiod. have enuf flow that the ssb gets kicked around some but that won't stop it.

so i'm resorting to a little deeper sandbed of 3" vs 1.5" and plan to reaquascape and change out most of my arag. man-made rock for real LR to aid in the nitrification process. something is fueling this stuff and i can't find the source.

i don't have enuf room to run a fuge. and if the deeper sandbed and additional LR don't help within 6-9months...

i'm considering a zeovit or prodibio route.
 
I know going a couple months without lights is probably out of the question for you since you have corals. It's the only thing that worked for me. I tried so many things and lights out the only thing that worked after six months or so of battling dino.
 
I don't understand what the issue is then. We only did lights out for a week, I dont think month(s) would be necessary to treat this. Really the lights werent to "treat" the problem, but rather to get it under control while the problem was treated with other methods.

My first thing to suggest would be to stop the chem-clean. I've dealt with cyano chemically before, but its important to note that dinoflagellets is not cyanobacteria, and in fact, despite being similar, is treated a little differently.

When you say you do a tank blackout - describe that. We actually wrapped ours with a black blanket in order to make sure as little light entered the tank as possible. But again, this was only to treat the symptoms not the problem. After the week of blackout - if we exposed it back to a complete photoperiod, the stuff would have come back because a week isnt enough time to remove the nutrients from the system.

I recieved a PM this afternoon from someone else encountering the problem, and I feel as though a rundown of everything we did is in order - though what I did I dont claim to work in anyone elses situation, though the half a dozen people who have used my method so far have made mention to me that it worked perfectly.

- we did the blackout to treat the symptoms and help keep the dinoflagellets from smothering the few corals that remained in the system.
- we then began the process of reducing the amount of nutrients in the system. This included skimming wetter than normal, as well as the addition of more macro algaes to the fuge. Water changes though seemed to make the problem worse, so instead of doing water changes, we put filter floss between the baffles of the sump and began blowing the rocks off with a turkey baster. The floss would capture the particles as they flowed through the baffles of the sump and be mechanically removed.
- we did use carbon, though I dont know if it did anything. Generally we always use carbon but change every other week, during the battle we changed it every day.
- We dramatically upped the flow in the tank which brought it up to the 20x turnover mark that you should be shooting for minimum.
- We also severly cut down out feeding regiment which, having used the new method for such a long period of time leads me to question what in the heck we actually were thinking feeding that much...

As stated earlier, the outbreak is symptomatic of an underlying problem, just like cyano, and if treating chemically does the trick, you still have to alter your habbits with the tank or you likely will have another outbreak.

Disclaimer: My methods worked for me. I guarantee nothing :p I also do not want to come off as harsh, because that is not like me, and definately not my intent. I know that this battle can be won through dilligence without chemicals, and thats how I feel it should be done. Using chemicals is a personal choice that we've made before to treat symptoms in other tanks, however, for the 150, the only "chemical" we use is Joes Juice for treating aiptasia, and we really have never regretted doing that method.

As for the zeo or probidio, I dont know if either of those will fix the problem, however, if you are looking to "start over" I would say they ight be worth looking into. Hopefully you can find what's fueling it, but my reccomendation is to stop the chem-clean treatments as they can affect other things too.
 
let me apologize in advance for this long post...

mkawayoshi, yep...a couple months w/o light would be like starting over :(

tekknoschtev, your post doesn't come off harsh to me one bit...we all want a solution to this stuff! whats scares me is that you also had a fuge at the time the scourge took over. i hope adding chaeto does something to starve it out. what other macros are you using?

all 3 tank blackouts included covering the entire tank (sides and top) with dark blankets/sheets/sleeping bags for 30hrs. i mean absolutely NO light was able to get in. my family hated that process bc the tank looked like a huge coffin!! :D perhaps that wasn't long enough and i should shoot for a 48hrs next?

after 5-7 days (slowly ramped up lighting in 30min increments), a light dusting would start to reappear on the sb. at that point i backed off the lighting, but it didn't matter bc this stuff grows in ambient room lighting.

so i resorted to the chemiclean process when the stuff really built up. each chemi-clean treatment did work to loosen/breakup the heavier growths but after a few days, the dusting reappeared. and once the dusting was there...i felt defeated.

during the last 7 months i've been rotating 100micron filter socks 2-3times a week. been changing out 3 cups of carbon weekly. i skim wet with a pair of euro 8-2's and keep ozone at 390-400mv. i can't get much more flow as the sand gets kicked around already at times. i don't have a heavy fish load. the water is crystal clear. the sps corals are colorful and encrusting.

so now i'm trying to use a somewhat more natural attack of a deeper (3") sb and macros. i'll be adding some kind of sandbed critters too...anyone got some recommendations?

regarding the zeo/prodibio route...practically every system i've seen is spotless of algae :) (except coralline) but the zeo costs too much for me based on 300g of water.
 
wow, all of that and you still have it... I'm pretty much at a loss. Yes, we had, well still have, a fuge with about a 6-8" DSB. At the time we didnt have much for macros other than the grape caulerpa that we didnt want in the display and a few small wads of chaetomorpha in the fuge. Since then we've pretty much gotten rid of the grape caulerpa and added halimeda to the fuge. I dont think that had any impact on the dinoflagellets but it might be something worth checking.

I guess I'm at a complete and total loss given everything you have (UV, ozone, phosphate removers, skimmers, carbon, etc.). That really has me baffled because I know we didnt jump through those hoops and solved it. I dont have much left to offer other than my wishes of good luck and hopes that it gets taken care of. Hopefully adding some sand and sand critters will help.
 
I can't find in the post where you said what phosphate remover you are using? I stopped using phosban and I can also say that the nasty microalgae problems I had are disappearing. I switched from that stuff to carbon when I did the lights-out regimen. Perhaps that's something to look into?
 
I have just read through this entire post and thought I would chime my 3 cents in. I have just fought the Dino's for an entire year. I tried every possible solution. No sooner I would see an improvement, it would come back full force. Nitrate and Phos. were undetectable on the Sailfert test kit. I was running Allgone, Chemi-clean, carbon, phosban, skimming wet, black-out, and dripping Kalk like a mad man. Nothing worked. I realized that my sandbed was probably holding all the nutrients but was afraid to disturb it to much, because everything in the tank was alive except for the snails. The last advice was to raise Ph to at least 8.4 during the day and not letting it drop below 8.2 at night. Do you know what kind of task that was. I too got the same advice about not changeing the water because the new water would just add more stuff to fuel the Dino's. Then the miracle happened, and I say that lightly. Becuase I was dosing so much Kalk to keep the pH up the Ca precip stated building up on all my pumps. I had a pump explode. Corals started dying within 12 hours. I didn't notice that the pump exploded until I saw the corals suffering. So, I took everything out of the tank. I scrubbed and washed all my rock, snails, crabs in freshwater. I put them in a rubber maid tub with fresh SW and 2 power heads in the garage with the lid on. I soaked all my pumps in vinegar. I put all my fish in another tub with a skimmer and fresh SW. I vacuumed all my sand from my tank. I filled the tank up with tab water and about 1/2 a cup of chlorox and let the tank run for 48 hours. I then drained and filed again with tap water and dechlorinator for another 48 hours. I then drained and filled with Fresh SW made from RO/DI and Bio-spira. Put new sand in and ran it with lights on about 24 hours. Then I started putting the rocks back in after washing and scrubbing them again with freshwater. Next came the animals. Now they are extremely happy and the tank looks great with no Dino's. I know there are people out there that have really had succes with these fixes for the Dino problem. I believe I tried everyone of them. It's hard to believe that something so small, and simple can cause this amount of fustration. Once you've had Dino's you will do anything not to get them again. It's also kind of hard to find info on the problem. And like this post there's so many different remedies. Some work for some while other do nothing at all. However, I do think the key is nutrient exportation.
 
First let me say that I have not read the entire thread. When I had a similar problem a few months ago, I was asked how old my lights were, my TDS reading on RO water and about my clean-up crew. A dozen additional red legged hermit crabs in my 75 gallon tank made an immediate impact on my problems (after upgrading my RO/DI system and replaced my VHO lighting with new tubes). Just a few thoughts to consider if not mentioned previously.
 
ostrow, i'm using Rowa in a deltec 509 fluid reactor with slow flow. phos and silicates didn't even register on salifert kits.

i've been rotating 3 cups of kent reef carbon every 3-4 days w/o results :(

jecco, i'm sorry to hear about your restart...but often its a blessing in disguise!

theyeg2, MH's are almost 1year old but i only run them 2-3hrs/day. i change the vhos (6hrs/day) every 8months and the T5s yearly.

i'm currently blacking out the tank for at least 60hrs. then will do a 20% water change and am going to try a product called AZ NO3 to lower my nitrates from the current 5-10ppm. after the blackout, will slowly ramp lighting up in .5hr increments every other day.
 
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