Cycling with TBS start to finish

[hdtran]

Don't sweat the pH too much (yet). What's happening is that your ammonia (which is basic) is slowly going down, while nitrite and nitrate ions (negative ions, release H+ ion in water, e.g. acidic) are going up. Your substrate hasn't caught up with buffering out your chemistry yet. If your hypersalinity treatment has killed anything, it's only macrofauna (e.g. sponges, cup corals, tunicates). It hasn't killed your bacteria, nor has it affected your live sand. Those are the important 'critters' for cycling your tank.

The important thing to observe is that the ammonia is beginning to go down (I do assume your tests are accurate, or at least, repeatable, to the significant digits that you are reporting) while both nitrite and nitrate are rising.

Easy for me to say, of course, since it's not my tank. If it were my tank, I might either throw in a teaspoon of buffer (I have both Kent buffer, which is a liquid, and SeaChem, which is a powder) or do a 25% water change (I know people will argue that this slows the cycle, but I'm patient).

 

[landlord]

Thanks for the info Hy! I do have some buffer but didn't really know what to do with it. I will do a bit of research in that area and perhaps give it a shot.

Thanks Again!

-landlord

 

[PRC]

Ditto to Andy's comments on the Mantis. I managed to get one out of my tank (a pure accident and not really a reproducable procedure) and still have two or three in the tank. They don't really seem to bother anything except maybe eating a hermit or two if they get hungry. My advice is just to try to keep them well fed. The ones in my tank actually come out at feeding time and take food directly from my feeding tongs.
I picked up my rock in Tampa as well and I never really had much of a cycle with my first batch. The ammonia never got above .5 and nitrites were barely detectable for a brief period.
You can add the buffer by mixing it with your evaporation makeup water.
I know Richard doesn't advise this but I would put the second batch in a separate container with a powerhead and airstone for a few days when you get it. I did that mainly because I didn't have the time to arrange it in my tank. I was very glad I didn't put it directly in the tank though since there must have been something on it that died and caused a pretty major ammonia spike (and corresponding stink) in the rubbermaid tub that it was in.
JMO, but before I invested in a chiller for the 75, I think I'd sell the halides and the PC's and buy T5's.

 

[landlord]

11/26/03 - Day 5

Results:

Date/Time: 11/26/03 9:09 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 8.0
Salinity: 1.024
Alkalinity: Normal / High
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: .2
Nitrate: 10

Notes:

Thanks for the info about the mantis PFC. I just might let him hang around. I figure I am bound to get another one when I get the second shipment from TBS anyhow. I do not think I am quite ready to throw in the towel on the halides just yet. I put a 7 inch fan in the canopy and aside from a bit more evaporation, the temp seems stable. I was able to run the halides with the PC's for 6 hours without any temperature increase. Tank seems to be very happy.

I know it is probably extremely premature to ask but it is bound to come up sooner or later. "When does one know when his cycle is complete?" Pretty open ended question but I need something to look forward to beside taking chemical tests everyday.

Thanks again everyone for reading, commenting, advising, etc..

-landlord

 

[landlord]

Gonna try and post a pic. If it doesn't look to terrible I will put up some more.

-landlord

 

[landlord]

oops

 

[hdtran]

Wow, Kurt, you got good macro algae there! Your algae will uptake (take up?) your nitrates, unless you've got another limiting nutrient. Hopefully, they'll also outcompete diatoms and/or cyano.

You know that your cycle is complete when both the ammonia and the nitrites have dropped to zero (0.0). Your nitrates won't be zero, but that's all right. Anything under 10ppm nitrate is generally considered all right for a reef setup.

Again, with TBS, people's experience have been 7-14 days before ammonia & nitrites drop to zero. Hang in there, you've only been at it since 11/22!

For what it's worth, my second half package showed a detectable (but not measurable) rise in ammonia 1-2 days after receipt, and dropped back to zero. Nitrites and nitrates are also zero.

Hint of the day: Don't brine your turkey in your aquarium...

 

[landlord]

Thanks for the tidbit Hy. I am really happy with that macro algae. The picture does not do it justice. The new growth is like a forest green color. It is really nice to pick out your own rock because you can hunt down the cool pieces. On another note I am one step closer to catching the mantis. I have been feeding him small pieces of raw shrimp from the end of a bamboo skewer. He will run across the tank for it. He only seems active in the morning when I first turn on the halides. He is getting more used to the trap but hasn't ventured inside yet. I think it is only a matter of time.

I figured the cycling process would take some time I just wanted the info so I could "See the light at the end of the tunnel" so to speak.

Happy Thanksgiving All!

-kurt

 

[Dazz]

did you have to entice him out for the shrimp... as in starting close to his cave and getting further and further away?

 

[landlord]

I totally had to intice him out at first. Once he got a taste for the fresh meat, he was all over it. Like a moth to flame. He did however get 'full' and stopped coming out. But at least he stopped smashing at the little barnacle things for the rest of the day.

-landlord

 

[landlord]

11/27/03 - Day65

Results:

Date/Time: 11/27/03 8:09 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.024
Alkalinity: Normal / High
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: .15
Nitrate: 8

Notes:

Tanks seems to be doing good. Not too happy with the test kit I have. It seems to leave far too much room for human judgement / error. My better half slipped in three Mushroom Polyps on me today. I have no place else to put them so they will have to take their chances.

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving!

-Landlord

 

[hdtran]

My better half slipped in three Mushroom Polyps on me today

You need to perform a pre-emptive strike on your BH ASAP! Give her a copy of either John Tullock's "Natural Reef Aquariums" or Bob Fenner's "Conscientious Marine Aquarist", fast , before you're surprised again!

One more thing: Don't feed the tank (or the animals in the tank) for a while. They'll all survive a few days of starvation, and you won't be putting in food, which either falls to the bottom & turns into ammonia, or is eaten by your mantis, which digests it & turns it into ammonia. Go ahead & let your mantis kill a few of your barnacles, it's not like you'll run out of barnacles before the cycle is complete.

p.s. We've never had good luck with either fresh or large turkeys; the best turkey we ever had was a 12 lb. chemically injected frozen variety. This year, we tried marinating the turkey in a brine bath (~3/4 to 1 cup salt to 1 gallon water, plus herbs, etc.) overnight before baking. This, of course, is about twice normal salinity, so we couldn't use our aquarium for brining (though I think we'd have picked up some cool hitchhikers on the turkey). The results were actually very good. The breast meat stayed moist & tender, which is usually our problem.

 

[landlord]

Roger that on the BH. I am trying to get her new (becuase she is addicted to fish now) tank up and running on an extremely limited budget. She managed to score a 55 gal tank and stand. I have been running around trying to wrangle up the other necessities to get it running for her. I think that she has already picked out the next 60 fish she plans to get, and the curtains to match! Sheesh!

I have never brined a turkey before but I hear that it is the way to go for moistness. Glad it worked out for you.

Hy - Do you have any posts up on your aquafuge. I would be interested in the info. I like the idea of natural filtration / nitrate removal. My space is limited and I would most likely have to keep it in the tank stand.

thanks

-kurt

 

[hdtran]

No pictures or post on my Aquafuge 24 yet. It's new, and I just had to empty it (fortunately, before putting any plants in) because one of the crossbraces was not glued in correctly. CPR Aquatics said, 'take it out before it springs a leak; talk to your dealer about a replacement, if no satisfaction there, come to us.' It's the Thanksgiving holiday, so I'll let everyone turkey-out until Monday. Before I shut it off, water flow through it looked fine. If you have a custom or DIY hood that handles MH lighting, you should be able to install a hang-on-back refugium pretty easily.

Since you're running a sump on your tank, you can divide your sump in half, and have a low-flow refugium in your sump (if you want macroalgae & pods). If you just want natural nitrate reduction, consider setting up a remote DSB or Jaubert plenum in your sump (seed it with a scoop or two of live sand from the display tank). There's a nice article about the Jaubert system in the archives of the "Advanced Aquarist" online magazine; that's how I set up my tank.

 

[Dazz]

hahaha I wish my better half would buy me stuff!

 

[landlord]

11/27/03 - Day 7

Results:

Date/Time: 11/28/03 7:42 PM
Temp: 80 degrees
Ph: 8.2
Salinity: 1.024
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .20
Nitrite: .10
Nitrate: 8

Notes:

Everything is running smooth. I chopped off some really disgusting looking white dead sponges. The actually obliterated themselves before I could remove the whole piece from the tank. I got out a couple large hunks of yuck however. Nothing seems to want to leap into my trap. It must be a conspiracy. The algae is getting heavier and heavier. The tank is really blooming in the stuff. This disturbs me but I do not know why. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? More and more little feather duster things keep creeping out and appearing. I like them a lot.

Thanks for the fuge / Jaubert method info. I think I need to put my nose in the books a bit more to really find out what I can do or what I want for that matter. It is unfortunate that money doesn't grow like the algae in my tank, because there is a lot of neat toys in the reef world that I would love to have. I am fortunate that I bought a house this year, the IRS should be better than usual come tax season. Yippie!!! more toys.

Thanks for reading!

-landlord

 

[hdtran]

If we trust your test kit to the 2nd decimal place, you notice that the ammonia and nitrite are trending downwards, which is good.

Interesting to note that your alkalinity went from normal/high to normal. Are you also testing calcium? If you're planning on keeping corals, you'll need to test calcium. When alkalinity drops, calcium also usually goes down.

Note also that nitrates feed macroalgae (actually, microalgae too, but it's better to have macroalgae, because (a) you can feed it to a tang, and (b) you can just cut pieces off & throw them out!).

So, if you don't like the way your macroalgae look, just put a pair of (stainless steel) scissors to them. Manually operated, please! (No electric lawnmowers or hairclippers, please!) Fortunately, if you overcut, the algae just grows back (like hair, except for us balding folks :mixed: )

My tank stats at day 22 (7 days past part II):

pH 8.0 (down from 8.2 3 days ago)
Ammonia: .0 (my kit goes .0, .25, .5, 1.0, 2.0, 4.0)
Nitrite: .0
Nitrate: 0
Alkalinity: Between 2.5 and 3.0 meq/l (down from 3.0 5 days ago)
Calcium: 450-500 (down from 500+ 10 days ago)

The pH may be a day/night issue; I normally test my water in the afternoons; today, I tested just after I got up. But because the alkalinity is also somewhat down, I'm assuming that something is metabolizing, so I'll add 4 tsps of Seachem buffer over the next two days (2 tsps each day with make up water). Note that the alkalinity is at NSW level, but most books recommend having high alkalinity (essentially, buffering capacity).

In your case, because you're testing alkalinity, I'd also test calcium.

 

[catdoc]

Landlord, hubby and I LOVED the lego mindstorm solution! My husband is a electrical/software design engineer and had gotten into the mindstorm by way of his "homework". Now I can have him put it to a GOOD use! LOL

I'm just getting started so I'm keeping an eye on how your start-up is going. Best wishes,

Christy

 

[landlord]

I missed a night in the testing. Had some other fires brewing around the house. I will be posting the results shortly.

catdoc - off the top of your head why would all of my four cats upper and lower front teeth be falling out? Are they just really inbred. Hate to catch you on the spot so feel free to ignore that one but I have always been curious about it. There is pobably another message board for cats???

Anyways - off to testing

-landlord

 

[landlord]

11/30/03 - Day 9

Results:

Date/Time: 11/30/03 8:09 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.0
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .1
Nitrite: .05
Nitrate: 9

Notes:

Tank is just doing awesome. A hoard of small crustaceans seemed to have crawled out of nowhere. I cut the lights down to just a couple hours a day and my algae problem is no longer increasing. Had to buy a bigger fishtank for the (suprise honey!) fish. The ten gallon wasn't cutting it. The new tank is a 29 BF. Not much bigger but it cannot be any worse. It was really all part of my secret plan to get the 10 gallon for Hy's octopus. <insert subliminal message to Hy to ship me the octo>. I got four toothless balinese cats for trade...

This thread is really getting a lot of attention. I'd like to thank everyone again for checking back and commenting and such. Doing this alone would be very painful and not as enjoyable as it has become.

-landlord