Cycling with TBS start to finish

landlord, I was going to warn you about the sponges when I saw your photo earlier on in the thread but I guess you found out anyway. IME most, if not all of the finger type sponges didn't make it long term. I still have a few lingering at about three months but even they seem to be on their way out. The sponges that seem to be doing fine are the yellow/orange ball sponges, the viscous sponges (sort of flesh colored with little lumps on them) and the orange encrusting sponges (although these don't appear to fare very well in even moderate light). There are also some black sponges that seem to be doing ok.
I'd give the tank at least two weeks before starting to worry about it being cycled. I'm sure someone already mentioned it but your ammonia and nitrites should not register on the test kit. You may want to try a couple kinds of different test kits if you're paranoid like me. My ammonia test was not very easy to read (Salifert) so I borrowed a kit from a friend to get a baseline.
On the surprises, I don't want to sound lecturing or anything, but please, please get a copy of Bob Fenner's "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" and share it with your BH. I understand the urge to buy all the new and beautiful creatures we see at the LFS. However, as Bob's book explains, unfortunately many of these creatures are ill suited for captivity in general and many others have very special care requirements. Also unfortunately, you'll find by perusing these boards that most LFs's are not very good at providing information on the livestock which they sell. I know my stocking list changed pretty significantly after reading a few books.
Good luck with the mantis. Just remember, they're smarter than we are. You might want to post on the Mantis forum to see if you can find someone local to take it off your hands if you don't want it. I'd personally recommend setting up a small tank for it, they're incredibly interesting creatures.
The other (nastier, IMO) hitchhiker to watch out for is the Hairy Crab (there's a blurry picture in my gallery). They'll eat your snails and hermits when they get big enough. The clinging crabs don't seem too bad, but I have caught them harassing my rose coral. The Porcelain Crabs are filter feeders and won't bother anything.
Overall, best advice I can offer is sit back and enjoy. Patience is probably one of the most important aspects of this hobby. I've had my TBS LR for over three months now and I'm still discovering new creatures almost daily.
Paul
 
Your ammonia & nitrites are going down, great!

When they're both zero, you're ready for stage 2.

I agree w/ Paul (PRC) re sponges, but I find that the tank has so many bacteria & whatnot that when the sponges die, there's little (or no) harm to the chemistry. I think of the dying sponges as pod-food :)

For baseline on ammonia test kit, I just test some freshly made saltwater (should have no ammonia!).
 
12/01/03 - Day 10

Results:

Date/Time: 12/01/03 7:39 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.0
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .00
Nitrite: .00
Nitrate: 10

Notes:

I cannot get a register on either ammonia or nitrite. I do believe that the test kit is probably lacking in the "fine tune" department. I agree with your reply PRC, on all of your suggestions. I have been looking around trying to find a good resource for knowledge bookwise. With all of the suggestions I have been receiving it looks to be an expensive endeavour. I will do what I can in that arena. I have found that I have gotten some pretty darm good advise from this site as well. Caring and knowledgable people are it's biggest strength. On another note the BH is not feeling so good about her recent suprise. I propmted her to do some research of her own and she did not like her conclusions. She has also learned that the LFS she went to was looking for the quick buck and did not give the soundest advise. Not to mention they are going out of business and pulling out of the state of Florida all together. Looking forward to seeing the pictures of the good and bad crabs for a comparison. I think that I could be in good shape. I am not going to spend a lot of effort trying to root out the mantis shrimp that now inhabit the tank. I have done more harm to the well being of my tank trying to get them out then the dying sponges have done. Hy, I took your advise and did a side by side comparison of pure water to my tank and still cannot see any measureable difference between the two. PRC, not to step on your toes because I value all of the comments / suggestions that I receive, but if the chemistry remains on this same trend does anyone think getting the second shipment in 5 days sound like a bad idea? Lemme know your thoughts, and as always, many thanks.

-landlord
 
Kurt,

Your chemistry is ready to go for TBS Package Part Deux (why do I feel like a bad movie sequel?). Richard's back from his vacation & going off to get a bunch more rocks, so next weekend should be good for you--unless, of course, you're queued up behind more customers :D

Enjoy!

p.s. Book recommendations: John Tullock's 'Your First Saltwater Aquarium' is inexpensive, and not half bad either. I've heard good things about his 'Natural Reef Aquariums.' I have 'YFSA' somewhere, buried among all the other stuff. I also have a copy of Bob Fenner's 'Conscientious Marine Aquarist'; excellent; aimed at the not-so-complete-novice, and Fenner/Calfo's 'Reef Invertebrates.' 'RI' is somewhat biased towards indo-pacific (and Fiji) rock, as opposed to aquacultured FL rock, but the bulk of the book is about critters, as opposed to rock. It doesn't cover corals or anemones, though. Eric Borneman has a book called 'Aquarium Corals.' If you can't find them at the LFS or LBS (Local Bookstore), Amazon always works. www.reefs.org has a 'library' section with book recommendations, and click-thru-links. Most of the Reefcentral sponsors also carry many of these books. We will quiz both you & 'Surprise, honey!' on the books, so get reading!
:p
 
Thanks for the reading info folks. I will add these to the Christmas list. I caught wind of Richards reply to a post about being in the key till Wed / Thurs. I think I will give him a call later on to see what he has in stock.

Thanks Again!

-kurt
 
12/02/03 - Day 11

Results:

Date/Time: 12/02/03 7:39 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.1
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .00
Nitrite: .00
Nitrate: 13

Notes:

All is still looking well. Got the 7 inch fan blowing on the water surface along with the 2 3.5 inchers. No temperature rise at all. It is most glorious. I should have just saved 50 bucks and bought 2 of the 7 inch desk fans and said screw the 3.5 inch ones. They are useless.

-landlord
 
Landlord

Your tank looks great. I got my first shipment from Richard on 11/24. and have requested my 2nd shipment . I'll bring in my test results and post them tomoorow, but they look very similiar to yours. Understand the BH issue. Fortunately mine had and lost a FO tank.
 
Kurt,
No need to worry about my toes ;) . I was really anxious to get my second batch of rock too. I think your numbers look great and IMO you should be fine to go if you don't see any ammonia or nitrite for a few more days.
I agree with Hy on the sponges, though I've got ~260G of water in my system so a dying sponge or two probably wouldn't have much impact. Sounds as though it's not causing problems for Hy with a bit less volume in his system.
You can see my pictures in my gallery by clicking on the little camera above this post. Pictures of all three crab types included. Problem with the crabs IME is that the good ones (porcelain's and clinging (actually the clinging crabs can be a little obnoxious at times)) hang out in the open all the time where you can see them. The bad ones (the hairy crabs) hide in the rockwork and burrow under the rocks, it's almost as if they know they're unwanted.
Definitely a good idea to invest in some reading material. I'm partial to Bob Fenner's "Conscientiou Marine Aquarist" as an all around best 'getting started' book. I've read about seven or eight of that type of book and that one seems to be the best IMO. The Calfo/Fenner "Reef Invertebrates" book is pretty good too, although a little narrower in scope and I agree with Hy's comments about the aquaculture rock discrimination :mad: . One of these days I'm going to get around to writing those guys on that one, it bothered me a bit since I'm a big proponent of aquacultured LR. A cheaper option is a book by Mike Paletta though I can't recall the name at the moment.
Good luck with the second batch and look forward to hearing about it.
Paul
 
I'm concerned about your nitrates for long term. Your inverts (except the hardier snails) are not going to like nitrates at 13ppm.

You might want to perform a pre-emptive water change just before the "Package II" arrives, and a second pre-emptive water change two days after.

I'm a bit surprised that your macroalgae is not sucking up your nitrates, though. My TBS tank never spiked detectable nitrates (and I know my kit works, because my FOwLR has between 5-10 ppm, and I can see the colors).

So, if you've got mixed, warm, well-aged (well, at least 24 hrs aged) water, do a 25% water change just before the new rock comes in (which will bring your nitrates down to about 9 ppm), and a second 25% change a couple of days later (hopefully bring nitrates down to 6 ppm). Then, think about doing something to keep the nitrates at 10ppm or below long term.
 
I'm just getting ready to get my 2nd shipment from TBS tonight and had called Mary damn near panic stricken because my nitrates jumped up to around 30ppm for some unknown reason.
She kind of had a little laugh at me and then told me that the nitrates locally where the TBS rock is farmed is about 40 all of the time and not to sweat my jump....just do a bit of a water change a couple of days after the 2nd shipment goes in. I know this sounds contrary to some other stuff I've heard and read but Mary hasn't steered me wrong yet. Any other ideas about this out there?
 
12/03/03 - Day 12

Results:

Date/Time: 12/03/03 7:25 PM
Temp: 79 degrees
Ph: 8.1
Salinity: 1.025
Alkalinity: Normal
Ammonia: .1
Nitrite: .05
Nitrate: 15

Notes:

Hmmm. Stats today look kind of weird to me based on the previous flow of things. I have a feeling that leaving the fresh shrimp in the mantis trap over night was not such a bright idea. For one, No Manits!. Grrrr. The clicking is like the "Tell-Tale Heart" A. Poe. I believe that the trap is coming out tonight. If I cannot catch the little bugger, so be it. Maybe he'll be easier when he gets bigger. I have begun bubbling 15 gallons of RO water for the pre-2nd shipment water change (Thanks Hy.). It has been pretty chilly here in FL with lows in the 50's, Richard (TBS Owner) said that he was going out on the boat today to pick up some more stock, I am optimistic about getting shipment part 2 on Saturday, so that is all I have to say before I jinx it!

Kashmir - Thanks for the good word, I hope all goes well with the 2nd shipment. Since I can't seem to take a picture that doesn't look green put some up! Sorry to here about the BH FO tank.

PRC - You have some great pics and the crab one made me feel better because I got a bunch of ones very similar to him. I did find one with really hairy back legs. The front were not but I am still thinking he is no good. Not having great success in capturing anything however. I appreciate the reading material feedback. I think that I am going to get a copy of B. Fenner's book CMA.

Hy - As always, you've been looking out for me and I appreciate it very much. I am taking your advise and bubbling some RO water for a 25% water change. I figure that should get me pretty close to 10ppm and with another 25%'er should be well below 10ppm in a weeks time. I got tons more macro algae on the bloom. Saw a really cool Mermaid's Cup pop outta nowhere, with some other varieies I cannot positively identify, probably one or two different species of caulerpa. I identified the macro algae in my one picture to date as Halimeda discoidea. It is getting all kinds of new sprouts. I'm hoping to keep this stuff thriving to suck up some Nitrates. We'll see how it goes.

okiebones - Ccannot wait to see some pics of your 2nd shipment!!! Get em up. I am going to post a few after this message. I hope they don't look too green.

Thanks to everyone, have a great night.

-landlord
 
pic 5 of 5 was just too big for the post. Sorry for the let down.

Have a Great Night gotta go Star Trek Enterprise is on now.

-landlord

Edit - Duped by the NBA no Enterprise tonight! :(
 
Good photos! Looks like you got a ton of sponges in addition to the macroalgae!

Enterprise is on repeats until 2004. I'd much rather stare at a tank any time (my laptop is out of my office and set up in my living room across from the tank).

The size of your bait should be really small--say a sliver 1/8x1/8x1/2 inch. The scent will attract critters (I waved a piece trying to catch a crab; he came out, but I couldn't grab him fast enough).

For Part II, you may receive (not saying will, but saying may, many customers seem to) an anemone or two. Since you're there in person, identify the critter! I misidentified the Epicystis (rockflower), and thus, placed it badly, and moved it twice. Poor thing's mad at me for that.

Both the Condylactis and the Epicystis need to be fed. A small piece of raw seafood (look at the mouth; you want food smaller than the mouth; I use about 1/4" max in any dimension), trailed across a tentacle will stimulate it (use tongs, chopsticks, or other device to hold seafood). The tentacle will actually stick to the seafood (it's the nematocyst firing), and the anemone will slowly move the food into its mouth. Make sure those anemones are off above the substrate, otherwise, the serpent stars will steal the food right out of them! My LFS says 'a few times a week'; Fenner says once a week is fine.

Maybe if you turn off your lights before you take the pictures, they'll be less green? My lighting is 1 VHO aquasun (basically white), 1 actinic (blue), and one actinic white (like 50/50), so my lighting looks white. Maybe if your lighting is looking blue, it's making your pictures green?
 
I will try a few experiments with the camera to see if the results are any better. Thanks for the anenome info. He has this tub like 12 feet by 6 feet full of anenomes. It's like "Sofa Superstore" for clownfish. I'm am pretty excited about it.

-kurt
 
"Sofa Superstore for clownfish" that's a good one :D

As far as the mantis trap goes a tiny piece of bait is just fine as long as you remember that the bait is for your satisfaction only. As far as the mantis is concerned, IME it will work just as well empty ;) .

I would do the water change, but I wouldn't worry too much about your nitrate levels. Mine have run between 10 - 25 for the last four months with no obvious ill effects. The only casualties I've had have been three cucumbers and I'm fairly certain they were doomed form the start.

I got a Condy and a Rock anemone (Epicystis crucifer) with my second half. I think it depends on what package you get and what they have and what kind of mood Richard or Mark is in, etc. My Condy seems to like being up high in the rocks. It moved sevreal times in the first few days after I put it in the tank but hasn't moved since then. The Epicycstis settled in to a spot low in the rocks and seemed very happy and robust. However, just a couple of days ago I caught one of the peppermint shrimp nibbling at it's stem and it seemed understandably annoyed. Yesterday morning when I got up it was on the move for the first time since I put it in the tank. It ended up sliding over a few inches and settling in the substrate. It actually looks much more natural there and , if it's possible, it looks pretty happy. I'll keep an eye out for marauding serpent stars when I feed it (thanks for the info Hy). I don't foresee too much of a problem since it was low in the rock work and pretty accessible to the monsters before and they never bothered it. Those stars are amazingly aggressive though.

I've had success catching hairy crabs with two methods. The first was to rubberband a piece of bait onto one side of my feeding tongs and present it to the crab. When it goes for the bait just grab it with the tongs. Simple but effective.
The second was the glass jar method but I waited til I saw the crab and placed the jar with the bait right under him next to the rock he was on. As for the Mantis, I've just learned to negotiate with them ;) .
 
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