Cycling without testing?

[Michael]

Understanding the cycle is important- no question- i agree. But its something that so worries people and their impatient natures. I find it best to just live with the fact its going to take the 4 to 6 and be done with it. I don`t think newbies should avoid testing once the tank is up and cycled- it can be a lifesaver.

totally get your point,really do, im just trying to get newbies with absolutely no knowledge to take a type of driving test first lol. my thoughts are if we can get them to test whilst cycling media and understand how marine life needs pristine water quality , as in dangers of ammonia poisioning, and high nitrate and phosphate which certain corals wont tolorate then we can save the lives of many marine creatures, although some species are now tank bred, nearly all stock is still from the seas, once they have passed their test they can test less next time haha.

 

[lougotzz]

If youre adding legit live rock you probably wont even see a spike. The one tank I set up with Live rock my ammonia went to like .5 and then later the evening was 0. I only had the ammonia spike due to die off from the rock being shipped over night. Your spike is going to rise and drop so fast chances are you wont see it testing once every week. When you start seeing diatom out breaks that usually means your tank is cycled. I agree with syrinx 100 percent. Your tank cycles on its own, all testing is doing is observing the part of the cycle you are at. If you leave that tank for four weeks its gonna be ready for a cleaner shrimp.

 

[IridescentLily]

totally get your point,really do, im just trying to get newbies with absolutely no knowledge to take a type of driving test first lol. my thoughts are if we can get them to test whilst cycling media and understand how marine life needs pristine water quality , as in dangers of ammonia poisioning, and high nitrate and phosphate which certain corals wont tolorate then we can save the lives of many marine creatures, although some species are now tank bred, nearly all stock is still from the seas, once they have passed their test they can test less next time haha.

+1 Absolutely.
Well put.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I think you are taking things a bit out of context here. I can only speak from my experience, and I have had no problems, utilizing the above mentioned methods. I am not saying that tossing a shrimp in will not work, I am just saying there are other alternatives.

Some times there is no material alternative.

Here is the situation:

A tank has had two three-inch fish for a year now after the cycle a year ago.

Now you want to add one ten-inch fish into it.

How would you do so?

This is an extreme case to illustrate a point.

Remember, bioload as fish increases by volume. A six-inch fish is 8 times the bioload of a three-inch fish of the same shape.

This is quite realistic:

After the cycle, you put in two gobies. Two months after, you see a five inch angel in your LFS and you want it. Can you put it in your tank without special consideration. The answer is no.

Gradualism does not always work because a fish is a unit of addition. You cannot stock half a fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

A newbie is not a newbie. There are brand new and there are less experienced.

Newbies will have to learn to QT fish very very soon, if the interest includes fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

russian roulette, how could you ever add livestock to a tank without first knowing if the media cycling in it has enough bacteria to cope with fish waste.

By the amount of ammonia that the medium has processed during the cycle and by two nitrite tests.

You do two nitrite tests, one on day 14 to test for presence of nitrite and after day 28-35 to confirm that nitrite has dropped or is gone.

The presence of significant nitrite means your medium has viable nitrosomonus bacteria, the decline in nitrite confirms that viable nitrobacter bacteria are present.

Bacteria are simple and they don't have reproductive problems. When the conditions are right they will reproduce. Do you often fear that the bacteria might all die in a DT? No.

The total ammonia processed during the cycle over 6-7 weeks is a totally reliable means to gauge how robust the cycle has been.

If the two nitrite tests go well, and you have added several ppm ammonia each week since week 4, by end of the sixth week you will surely have a robust cycle.

Right conditions like flow rate, aeration, circulation can be confirmed by inspection.

This is very very very easy. Always works.

 

[Michael]

yeah thanks for that fella, as ive said before, you can get away with 2 nitrite tests only, your a very experienced reefer, dont forget which forum this thread is in

 

[wooden_reefer]

yeah thanks for that fella, as ive said before, you can get away with 2 nitrite tests only, your a very experienced reefer, dont forget which forum this thread is in

A newbie is not a thoughtless person. This is not hard if you think about it.

A newbie MUST understand the science of nitrification well before the start of this hobby.

A newbie should read a few articles first on nitrification.

 

[wooden_reefer]

yeah agree again, but how many folk have room t do this? what if you live on a 3rd floor apartment, or a condo? where space is limited, no room for garbage cans full of curing rock, this is why a lot of reefers use live rock already cured, we seem to do ok with this method.

You keep saying this is hard and hard. It is not.

If you have a single family home and a garage you will have enough room.

If you have a condo you will may have to scale down. Most people do not live in a condo. Many condo have detached garage and an electrical outlet.

All you need are a bucket, a large container, a powerhead, and a hose.

 

[Michael]

A newbie is not a thoughtless person. This is not hard if you think about it.

A newbie MUST understand the sicience of nitrification well before the start of this hobby.

A newbie should read a few articles first on nitrification.

Lol, unfortunately they dont, just hang around here for a month or 2 and read the posts they put up,in dream world they would read up first, in real world they dont and ask us for help,to you its simple, to me its simple, to a lot of reef central reefers it simple, to them its all so confusing, come-on wooden, please dont tell me you believe newbies aknow the basics, come-on, they come on here for answers for fs

 

[Chiefsurfer]

ok, well I live in a 2 bedroom apartment. 1 bedroom is my parents who share the apartment with me in the summer, on weekends. That room is off limits for any fish-related stuff. My small closet is home to my 20 gallon trash-can with my saltwater. That is ALL that can fit in there with my clothes. I am 6'5" so my bed is queen-sized so I can fit on it, which conincidentally takes up a LOT of real-estate in my room. On my dresser is my tv(14") and my 20 gallon tall tank. Next to my dresser is a little coffee table that holds most of my reefing "tools" and under it I have a 5-gallon pale of pure RO/DI. My tiny bathroom(about 25 sq ft not including the shower) houses my ro/di, just kind of sitting on the counter. The bedrooms are 10'x10', I have a tv/living room with a couch and a chair, 2 end-tables for the lamps. The joined kitchen has a small gas stove, about 6ft of general sized counter-space that has my microwave, sink, and small 6 gallon FW tank with about 8 guppies in it. I have a 4-person table against the wall with 3 chairs around it. No Garage, no garage access, no shed, no basement or attic. Where would I have the space for this?

Not trying to 'dis you, but what works for you may not work for others. I think you generously under-estimate how much free real-estate people may have for this hobby. I do NOT have room for anything else dedicated to this hobby at this time. I think this is MUCH more the rule than the exception.

Besides you guys going WAAAAAAAY too complicated than the OP ever expected, and getting slightly off-topic I will try and answer the question.

You should be able to test every-so-often and be assured you have bacteria. If you get your LR from a LFS that is cured, you will likely need to force the cycle with shrimp. Take a few shrimp, cut them into smaller pieces, throw them in the tank. If you measure ammonia when you test, great, if not, oh well. Given that you put the shrimp in there, I am sure you have some bacteria. If you are patient, and add slowly, and watch closely during the fish addition stage, you will be fine.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I remember having read two books before I bought my first tank. This was 1982.

 

[Michael]

I remember having read two books before I bought my first tank. This was 1982.

well that was 7 years before me, i dont doubt there are a few newbies who also read books, bet its a low percentage though.

 

[sowellj]

Some times there is no material alternative.

Here is the situation:

A tank has had two three-inch fish for a year now after the cycle a year ago.

Now you want to add one ten-inch fish into it.

How would you do so?

This is an extreme case to illustrate a point.

Remember, bioload as fish increases by volume. A six-inch fish is 8 times the bioload of a three-inch fish of the same shape.

This is quite realistic:

After the cycle, you put in two gobies. Two months after, you see a five inch angel in your LFS and you want it. Can you put it in your tank without special consideration. The answer is no.

Gradualism does not always work because a fish is a unit of addition. You cannot stock half a fish.

I don't understand what you are trying to say or what your point is. The only point I was trying to make is that you don't have to dump a shrimp in to cycle a tank.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I don't understand what you are trying to say or what your point is. The only point I was trying to make is that you don't have to dump a shrimp in to cycle a tank.

You can use another source of ammonia. This is not material alternative.

There is no material alternative to cycle in advance using a source of ammonia.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I don't understand what you are trying to say or what your point is. The only point I was trying to make is that you don't have to dump a shrimp in to cycle a tank.

Here is the situation:

A tank has had two three-inch fish for a year now after the cycle a year ago.

Now you want to add one ten-inch fish into it.

How would you do so?

I ask you , how would you introduce a 10-inch fish into a tank that already has two three-inch fish, and the cycle occurred a year ago.

How? What is your alternative?

I'd like to know your alternative.

 

[sowellj]

Some times there is no material alternative.

Here is the situation:

A tank has had two three-inch fish for a year now after the cycle a year ago.

Now you want to add one ten-inch fish into it.

How would you do so?

This is an extreme case to illustrate a point.

Remember, bioload as fish increases by volume. A six-inch fish is 8 times the bioload of a three-inch fish of the same shape.

This is quite realistic:

After the cycle, you put in two gobies. Two months after, you see a five inch angel in your LFS and you want it. Can you put it in your tank without special consideration. The answer is no.

Gradualism does not always work because a fish is a unit of addition. You cannot stock half a fish.

You seem to be getting a bit worked up here wooden. I still fail to see what this has to do w/cycling a tank.

 

[wooden_reefer]

You seem to be getting a bit worked up here wooden. I still fail to see what this has to do w/cycling a tank.

If you would tell me how you would put a ten-inch fish into a tank with two small fish, and the cycle has occurred a year ago, you will not longer fail to see why this has to do with cycling.

Would you just do so?

BTW, I never like the phrase cycling a tank very much. You do not cycle a tank; you cycle the medium of filtration for a tank.

 

[sowellj]

I would add additional small fish over the course of a few months prior to the addition of the 10 inch fish ...

 

[wooden_reefer]

I would add additional small fish over the course of a few months prior to the addition of the 10 inch fish ...

Yes, you can do that.

But if someone gives you a fish that has outgrown the tank, he may not let you have some much time.

Can you prepare to place this large fish sooner, say within 5 weeks?