Cycling without testing?

[wooden_reefer]

"You may have to re-read my post. I did not say that nitrification activity would grow. I said it would continue to happen. Live rock has various organisms that are continuing to live, grow and die."

This type of increase in nitrification activity is NOT available increase that will help an aquarist.

It is like saying that the ammonia generation will increase as the fish get bigger and so will nitrification activity. Well, it won't help you when you add new bioload because you CANNOT get the fish to become smaller again.

The same is true with increase in lives in a reef tank. Unless you remove the newcomers and new lives, they continue to need the nitrification activity that they spur earlier.

Ideally, you have to provide additional nitrification in advance when you stock to completely eliminate any mini-cycling. This is why you need to cycle, period, and if you add livestock slowly, this is why you need to increment and boost nitrification activity.

Deviation from ideal is sometimes OK if the re-cycling is really mini, as I have said. Going from 8 units of bioload to 10 is often OK just by "be careful not to overfeed". But if you are adding 5 to 5 to make 10 units of bioload, you should definitely provide added nitrification. If you are adding 30 to 5 to make 35 units of bioload (adding one large fish into an existing tank), if you don't you will see fish belly up.

Gradualism in stocking often works, say if you stock about half within 5 weeks of the cycle and then gradually afterwrad. Often it works but is not ideal. Sometimes it will not work and you will have problem with ammonia.

 

[IslandCrow]

Wooden (and everyone else involved). I suggest we take our debate to a new thread if you want to continue the discussion. We really have gone beyond the scope of the original question.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Wooden (and everyone else involved). I suggest we take our debate to a new thread if you want to continue the discussion. We really have gone beyond the scope of the original question.

Often things spur from an tangential consideration.

The focus was the possibility to do very few test, no test, for a cycle.

I always do two nitrite tests, on days 14 and day 28-35, for the whole cycle for peace of mind since it is critical, although it has always worked for me.

Done here.

 

[Michael]

to the op, id suggest you buy ammonia, nitrite and a nitrate kit, salifert is a good kit imo, test the tank for these params, you may or may not see ammonia depending on the quality of the live rock you have purchased, usually ammonia rises and then nitrite follows, eventually they both start to fall and nitrate starts to rise, then when the ammonia and nitrite are 0 for a few days do a water change to dilute the nirate formed, then a few snails can be added, if your unsure wether your live rock is cured, add some flake food and test for ammonia, if the bacteria on the rock is mature it will deal with this, however if ammonia becomes present then you need to cycle the media, after reading this thread you will have worked that bit out,lol.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The brand newbie needs some test kits during cycling.

The thrust that it is better to rely on having done the right things to ensure a cycle is basically sound.

Cycliing is basically very easy, even with the needless complication of cycling a tank and worse with recently collected liverock.

I always cycle a medium in a separate container and then transfer to the tank, not cycle a tank . Very very very easy.

 

[wooden_reefer]

but 90% of us cant afford to shell out 5-6 thousand dollars adding everything at once, so adding when we can afford it is a preffered method by most if not nearly all.

I actually spend less in total but it is true that I spend a lot at once on livestock. But I save in totality.

1. Livestock is cheaper if you buy more at once.

2. Recently collected or cultured LR is very expensive. It is really gross waste to use it to cycle, IMO.

3. Transitional medium is very cheap. A 50 # bag of crushed oyster shell is $8. I wrap it in nylon panty hose, cheap. I re-use the same over and over again.

You need the same equipment set up working even if you stock slowly.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong way to do this,

I disagree.

Gradual stocking without also taking care that no significant re-cycling occurs is wrong.

 

[Michael]

I actually spend less in total but it is true that I spend a lot at once on livestock. But I save in totality.

1. Livestock is cheaper if you buy more at once.

2. Recently collected or cultured LR is very expensive. It is really gross waste to use it to cycle, IMO.

3. Transitional medium is very cheap. A 50 # bag of crushed oyster shell is $8. I wrap it in nylon panty hose, cheap. I re-use the same over and over again.

You need the same equipment set up working even if you stock slowly.

as mentioned id do the same if i could afford to

 

[wooden_reefer]

Hmmm ... okay ... OP here.

Before we go any further, I must say thank you all so much for such overwhelming advices. But I must also say that, as a newbie trying to digest all the information, I am now officially confused. :hmm5:

After reading and re-reading the comments (over and over again), in my humble opinion, I feel that some of the comments may not be relevant to my case. And from all the information kindly given, I'm trying to see what is applicable to a newbie like me. So, if you would, please correct me if I'm wrong on the points below.

1. After adding live rocks to the tank, I should wait for 48 hours then test for ammonia. If the live rocks have some die off, I should get some ammonia readings.

2. If it reads 1ppm or above, then I can just let nature take it course. Ammonia will be converted into nitrite, and then to nitrate. And eventually, my ammonia will be 0, nitrite 0, and I should have some nitrate.

3. If the live rocks don't give me any ammonia, I can add one or two cocktail shrimps and let them decay in the tank. That will definitely give me some ammonia.

4. Now this point I'm not certain. If I plan to start small, I don't really have to worry whether I initiate the cycle with 1ppm ammonia or 5ppm ammonia. (My plan is to start stocking with 3 little blue/green chromis, then a month later add a pair of clowns.)

5. As a newbie who should and will stock slowly, I don't have to worry if my system can handle robust cycle. And I plan to stock real slow - one small fish per month.

6. During each month of waiting, I can make the system ready for the new fish by gradually feeding a little more to increase the bacteria.

Once again, thank you for all the advice.

1. yes, if there is still die-off you should get some ammonia.

2. Just one reading of 1 ppm for on day 2, 3,or 4 may not be enough ammonia for a cycle. Better to read 1 ppm for the first 1/3 of the cycle. (An argument here is that accumulation of ammonia is not necessary. True, but accumulation of ammonia is sufficient and easy to confirm).

3. Yes, the good thing about adding is that you don't have to test for ammonia since you add it. 15 grams of moist shrimp will decay completely in 100 gals of water to give 1 ppm N ammonia.

4 and 5. If you plan to stock slowly, you need a less robust cycle to afterward start stocking. 1 ppm ammonia during the cycle should so for you. But studied the 5-gal bucket way to defeat the new tank syndrome that I outlined. You will never get any ammonia in DT even if you stock slowly if you follow that outline.

6. Yes you can. You can deliberately and gradually overfeed when you plan to stock more bioload and then after you have actually added bioload you become more careful in feeding all in the tank. In general, this would age the DT water more unnecessarily. Plus, some fish can actually eat too much for their own good.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"many reefers stock slowy with no problems noted at all"

yes, I have said so.

If you go from 8 to 10 units of bioload (for fish it is just the weight), you likely can get by with more careful feeding.

One the other hand, don't put a nine inch fish into a tank that has only two four-inch fish for six months without special provision of added nitrification; otherwise all will go belly up.

Less extreme will be dicretionary, and I say going from 5 to 10 units of bioload will need added nitrification.

 

[sowellj]

I disagree.

Gradual stocking without also taking care that no significant re-cycling occurs is wrong.

I think you are taking things a bit out of context here. I can only speak from my experience, and I have had no problems, utilizing the above mentioned methods. I am not saying that tossing a shrimp in will not work, I am just saying there are other alternatives.

 

[Mountain_Medic]

If you can go to a chemical supply, you can pick up some organic ammonia instead of using shrimp. Will get you a faster cycle start. Also, you dont really need to test during your cycle imo. I just watch the tank. Your going to go through a brown diatomes bloom, which will clear up. Then a green algea bloom about a week after the diatomes are gone. When the green algea bloom is clear, your tank should be done with it's cycle.

I am NOT saying not to test to see if it's done, but testing every few days is pretty much a waste imo. I start testing when I see the green algea bloom.

 

[charnkiat]

If you can go to a chemical supply, you can pick up some organic ammonia instead of using shrimp. Will get you a faster cycle start. Also, you dont really need to test during your cycle imo. I just watch the tank. Your going to go through a brown diatomes bloom, which will clear up. Then a green algea bloom about a week after the diatomes are gone. When the green algea bloom is clear, your tank should be done with it's cycle.

I am NOT saying not to test to see if it's done, but testing every few days is pretty much a waste imo. I start testing when I see the green algae bloom.

Thanks, medic. Will the brown diatoms and the green algae go away by itself? (I'm not planning to turn on the light. Will I still get algae bloom?)

 

[Michael]

ive never had a green algae bloom with a cycle, never, the brown algae is diatoms and will burn out, its sensible to test the cycling of media, otherwise its all guess work and livestock can be exposed to ammonia poisoning.

 

[Michael]

"

One the other hand, don't put a nine inch fish into a tank that has only two four-inch fish for six months without special provision of added nitrification; otherwise all will go belly up.

.

agreed, and of course i agree with preparing extra media for a potential new fish this size elsewhere, my comments are about a mixed reef with a small fish added here and there over a period of time, perhaps i should have been a little more clear about that, im the one not explaning things correctly now

 

[syrinx]

No reason to test- set it up let it cycle for 4 weeks and it will prob be ready. Tanks cycle by themselves.

 

[Michael]

No reason to test- set it up let it cycle for 4 weeks and it will prob be ready. Tanks cycle by themselves.

russian roulette, how could you ever add livestock to a tank without first knowing if the media cycling in it has enough bacteria to cope with fish waste.

 

[syrinx]

If there was a source of ammonia, and after 4 weeks the parameters are fine- it is cycled. Virtually every tank of the thousands I have helped set up- I have helped with water tests- some weekly- some daily. The results are almost 100% the same- it takes about 4 weeks to initially cycle a tank. Very little can be done to speed this up or slow it down. The tank will recycle to each increase of load, or change in bacterial habitat- but it will be in the span of hours usually.

 

[Michael]

although i would agree a reefer such as yourself whos started off lots of tanks wouldnt need to test regulary, a complete newcommer to the hobby, and 90% of them post here, wouldnt have the skills and knowledge to set up like you can, hence they are better off testing the water and understanding its parameters and the quality issues.

 

[syrinx]

Understanding the cycle is important- no question- i agree. But its something that so worries people and their impatient natures. I find it best to just live with the fact its going to take the 4 to 6 and be done with it. I don`t think newbies should avoid testing once the tank is up and cycled- it can be a lifesaver.