Cycling without testing?

[Pufferpunk]

I don't see any reason to waste $$$ on any so called "cycling products", if you add live rock to your tank. It will cycle on it's own. If you do run the skimmer, expect to have someone emptying the cup daily. I agree about not bothering to add "live sand" too, dry sand will become live with time, from the live rock. You could also get a cup of sand from your LFS or a local reefer, to seed it.

 

[NirvanaFan]

There really isn't any need to monitor the cycle. Testing once a week or so when you go over will be fine. Where are you getting your rock from? There may be enough die off from it that you don't need the shrimp. Your plan sounds fine though. There aren't any set rules for cycling a tank.

 

[Chiefsurfer]

^+1

If you are buying uncured live rock(would be cheaper), you would never need anything to cycle the tank. There will be plenty of die-off to cycle the tank on it's own without shrimp.

Wish woodenreefer would chime in here with the amount of shrimp needed if you went that route. There is a weight of shrimp to gallons of water ratio that you could be absolutely sure it reached a large enough ammonia spike. If you do it that way, you can rest assure that it reached the correct ammonia level. I would like to see at LEAST 2ppm ammonia, although if you stock slow enough, that is unnecessary. 4ppm+ ammonia is usually reccomended if you are going to stock fairly quickly.'

To pufferpunk, why wouldn't you run the skimmer? the skimmer will not pull ammonia out of the water, so I don't see why not running it. YES, it may not be necessary, but there are MANY people who run it throughout the cycle, including myself, and I think I am getting great results.

 

[Pufferpunk]

I didn't say not to run the skimmer. If he was around to monitor it, then yes definitely run it. But when I was curing LR in a bucket, I had a skimmer on it & it would overflow with gunk within a few hours. I wound up putting a 5g bucket underneath the skimmer, to catch the overflow.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I'll be setting up the tank in my new house. I would like to start the cycling process before moving in, so I won't be able to test the parameter during the cycling. The tank will be 34"x22"x26". Please advice if my plan were to ...

1. add live rock, bagged live sand
2. add pre-mixed salt water
3. run the tank and skimmer
4. add 2 raw cocktail shrimps
5. one week later, remove shrimps
6. leave the tank running without testing for another 4 weeks.

I should be moving in after that 4-week period, and would be ready to do any kind of tests. What kind of tests should I do to make sure that the tank is indeed cycled?

1. I do only two nitrite tests for the entire cycle, one in day 14 to confirm significant nitrite, another between day 28 to 35 to confirm disappearance of nitrite.

2. I do not need to ID the nitrite peak or know the magnitude of the nitrate peak. I know the peak by having known enough ammonia during the cycle.

3. I do not remove any shrimp. I allow it to decay completely. This is how I know the amount of ammonia I have added. I blend the shrimp into an emusion before adding.

4. I never use recently collected LR to cycle and never have to worry about saving any hitchiking lives on LR.

5. I never change any water during the whole cycle.

6. Generally, cycling per se is a very very simple process. Cycling with recently collected LR complicates things just a bit.

7. Nitrification bacteria are not Pandas, they are not chosey about reproduction. When the conditions are right, and easily so, nitrification bacteria will grow.

 

[Chiefsurfer]

^ok, misinterpeted. Yes, true, if you are not there to monitor, I would suggest not running. If it goes bonkers for some reason, even with a big drum to catch the water with, you could pull a LOT of stuff out, run something dry. There are many possabilities for disaster here, if you can't monitor every-so-often.

and wooden-reefer, you wanna say how much shrimp you need/gallon, to raise 1ppm? I always see you saying it, and I never remember.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Very easy to remember:

half ounce (15 grams) of moist shrimp meat emusified will give an ammonia pulse of 1 ppm in 100 gals of water within 48 hours.

You can also calculate:

Most moist meat has 80% water and 20% protein.

Animal protein, dry, has about 15% nitrogen.

15 grams of moist meat has about 3 grams of protein, which has about 0.45 grams of nitrogen.

0.45 grams of nitrogen will give about 1 ppm N ammonia in 450 liters of water, which is about 100 gals.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Without testing is a little too confident when the lives of a lot of livestock depends on the cycle.

It has never failed yet, but I still do the two nitrite tests as a routine, for phsycological reason. A lot at stake!

 

[fleming3]

Hey Charnikat - I did leave the shrimp in there to let them decay completely. That way, I was able to determine that I had enough nitrifying bacteria colonization to handle a continuous amount of ammonia. My ammonia spike came before the shrimp had decayed away, and once it dropped, it never returned. I felt safer knowing that despite the fact that there was decaying matter in my tank, there was no detectable ammonia.

Now, as several who have posted have mentioned, this "shrimp cycle" is typically not necessary if you're using ALL live rock. I went down the dry rock route for my set up, this time around, and only used a small amount of live rock to seed the new system, so a shrimp cycle made sense for my situation.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Now, as several who have posted have mentioned, this "shrimp cycle" is typically not necessary if you're using ALL live rock. I went down the dry rock route for my set up, this time around, and only used a small amount of live rock to seed the new system, so a shrimp cycle made sense for my situation.

Only if you use recently collected LR that still has die-off occuring. Some LR you can buy may have no more dieoff to occur. It may not be very bad if the LR has been in the same water that the die-off has finished for weeks, thus is cycled.

There are few benefits in cycling with recently collected live rock. It is better to cycle with dead stuffs first and put the recently collected LR into a place that already has a well-cycled medium.

But a lot of people cycle with recently collect LR.

 

[IslandCrow]

Thank you so much for the advice. May I ask how do you suggest I "initiate" the cycle then? After adding the live rocks and sand and pre-mixed water, should I immediately dose pure ammonia to 1ppm, then let nature work its wonder?

OK, first keep in mind I'm no marine biologist, and I've had reef tanks for just under 5 years, but I've done quite a bit of reading and heard many arguments both ways, so I'll give my opinion. I think many people make this cycling thing much more difficult than it needs to be. First, just because your test kits aren't showing any ammonia doesn't mean no ammonia is being produced in the tank. Second, just because you didn't throw a chunk of dead meat in the tank doesn't mean nothing is decaying in there. Third, if you're starting with live rock, you don't "have" to get an ammonia spike. This is often an effect of the process, but not a prerequisite. The bacteria on the rock will survive just fine all on its own. Unless you have some super clean rock, there should be enough organic material and tiny little critters left to decay to keep your bacteria nice and happy for quite some time (probably indefinitely, as some of it is alive and multiplying). If your rock doesn't have this, I'd hardly consider it live. A cycle is just the process of your tank reaching a balance between ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and the bacteria that consume them. For that matter, we speak of a cycle as a process, but the nitrogen cycle is really a state of being, not a process. What we're really talking about is how you get there, and that depends entirely on how far away it is. For instance, the journey to a tank with a fully functional cycle is much longer if you're starting off with a lot of decaying matter and very little nitrifying bacteria than if you're starting off with the opposite.

So, what's the answer to your question? Your tank is "cycling" the moment you add live rock (cured or uncured) to salt water. There you go, you've "initiated your cycle". Sit back and enjoy. There are always exceptions, but assuming you're starting off with live rock and you're going to be responsible and not stock your tank to the gills (so to speak) all at once, pretty much the only thing you have to do is wait. This has worked for me through 3 setups.

 

[Fizz71]

Personally...
- I'd ditch the bagged live sand..imo it's not worth it, get dry stuff and a handfull of live from a friend to seed it.
- I'd ditch the shrimp..the live rock will do.
- Keep the skimmer running and don't bother testing if you're not doing anything for a month (just watch for evaporation and topoff with RO)
- Once you're ready test the big three..Ammonia should be 0, nitrite should be 0, nitrate should be something other than 0. Note...if the first two aren't 0 then you need to wait longer.
- Water change to get the nitrates down and start adding life SLOWLY.

I personally left live rock running in a sump for over a year..didn't even bother skimming, but it was well cured rock. Once the tank was up and ready I integrated it and worked to get the nitrates down. I actually added live sand from a friend's tank breakdown too which spiked the nitrates initially until the new RDSB took foot.

I only tested for ammonia and nitrite a few times and I never got enough color to warrant anything but a 0. People fear the dreaded "cycle" but it's really just a waiting game...if you're waiting a month then it will be much easier on you. The only thing I'd be concerned with is if you get live rock that is not cured..it will stink like you won't believe and you'll "visit" your tank and receive a horrible stench. I personally don't feel the need to monitor a cycle unless I'm looking to add stuff to the tank right away. So if you're letting it ride for a month, I wouldn't be concerned as long as you watch your skimmer and salinity.

Remember that we're talking about bacteria here..they will reach a comfortable equilibrium of population and then stay there. Even if you have good cured rock and a cycled setup--if it sits for a long time you'll need to add things in slowly and let the bacteria population recover (increase) from each addition to the tank's bioload.

Good luck.

 

[wooden_reefer]

First, just because your test kits aren't showing any ammonia doesn't mean no ammonia is being produced in the tank. Second, just because you didn't throw a chunk of dead meat in the tank doesn't mean nothing is decaying in there. Third, if you're starting with live rock, you don't "have" to get an ammonia spike. This is often an effect of the process, but not a prerequisite.

It is possible to have a situation where ammonia is produced in greater and greater quantity and is just consumed by greater and greater nitrification activity.

However, it is pointless to say that ammonia accumulation is not necessary; in practice it is often the case in order to have a robust cycle. Decay generally occurs faster than growth of bacteria, for a period.

The real point is that it is very very very simple to add an ammonia source.

I think those whose still argue that ammonia could be enough without accumulation is making cycling difficult. Adding an ammonium source is indeed the easiest part. It is sufficient and very easy, and is more often neccesary than those who want to argue suggest.

It is best for me to know for sure that there has been enough ammonia during a cycle by having accumulation of ammonia: sufficient and easy. Neccessity is academic.

 

[wooden_reefer]

It is a long story but I just cycled for two 9-inch fish, one 6 inch fish, six 5 inch fish all at once. I did not plan for them all at once and 80 % of LR had been allowed to become dry and I did not purchase the remaining filtration medium, which really was a "de-nitrifier" that ran slowly.

Of course it is possible. Zero ammonia after a week now.

The medium I started had repeatedly processed several ppm ammonia pulse once a week for several weeks. I started the cycle when I had the general inclination to get livestock. I did not see the ad for this deal until two weeks ago.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The thrust of this thread is good.

I understand that newbies will want to learn about the process of cycling so many tests have to be done, but basically the way to cycle is to have done the right things to ensure a robust cycle.

Few tests are really needed if you cycle from the dead, ie, do not use recently collected live rock to cycle. Instead of testing, you add ammonia source and do the right things. Your dead medium will cycle very easily; just two nitrite tests for the whole cycle to your mental security. Never failed me yet.

Instead of WC during the cycle; use just a small amount of water to cycle and then dump all the dirty cycling water after the robust cycle.

 

[NirvanaFan]

can you define what you mean by a robust cycle? What is the difference whether the ammonia gets to 1ppm or 4ppm?

I could see trying to get to 4ppm or something high if you intended to stock the tank heavily to begin with, but that is not something to be encouraged (IMO), especially to new people. New people should be stocking slowly, so whether they have 1ppm or 4ppm, I don't think it will matter.

 

[wooden_reefer]

can you define what you mean by a robust cycle? What is the difference whether the ammonia gets to 1ppm or 4ppm?

I could see trying to get to 4ppm or something high if you intended to stock the tank heavily to begin with, but that is not something to be encouraged (IMO), especially to new people. New people should be stocking slowly, so whether they have 1ppm or 4ppm, I don't think it will matter.

A robust cycle is one that can handle a lot of bioload at once upon the end of a cycle. It is relative; but in general, if at the end of a cycle your medium can process 1 ppm ammonia per day you should be OK.

Having processed pulses of ammonia of several parts ppm during the cycle will do.

I always stock as fast as I can as much as I can get as designed for the DT. There are many advantages to do so, but I agree that newbies should not do so.

The reason, the real one, to stock slowly for a newbie is that a newbie is not knowledgable about disease control. A lot of sick fish in a tank is a troublesome sight. The reason is not that you need time for bacteria population to grow and to match the bioload. You should never expose any fish to any ammonia for any length of time if you can help it. Gradually stocking fish without special remedial plan will lead to mini-cycling or re-cycling if you wait too long after the cycle to add livestock. In fact, the nitrification bacteria population right after the cycle should be extremely high. It declines in the days to come with the bioload, with you stop putting in ammonia source.

There is a window of several weeks after a robust cycle when the nitrification bacteria population remains high. After that window, you need a remedial plan to avoid mini-cycling when you add large amount of livestock. The remedial plan is to cycle another medium separately in advance in a separate container and then add to your sump and allow return water to run over it.

1/2, 2/3. 3/4, 4/5... remember this series of numbers, which is the unit of bioload (roughly for fish volume/mass of fish). By the time you add 1 to 9 to make 10, little mini-cycling will result regardless. It is going from 1 to 2, or from 3 to 10 (if you add one very large fish long after a cycle) that matters the most.

 

[IslandCrow]

A robust cycle is one that can handle a lot of bioload at once upon the end of a cycle.

To clarify my point, this is one of the contingencies I specifically mentioned my theory did not account for. My assumption was that most people are not either so confident (or overconfident I'd argue) or foolish enough to fill a tank with fish in one fell swoop. If this is your plan, I do understand the argument for a "robust cycle". You will need a large enough population of bacteria to handle this bioload from the get go, and if you don't give them enough of an energy source from the beginning, the tank will more than likely not be ready. In this particular case, I would imagine the addition of an external ammonia source would be necessary. I think it's still quite a bit of a risk, though. But I guess if you can't decide what you should do, a cocktail shrimp or two probably isn't going to do anything more harmful than stink a bit and perhaps look kind of nasty for awhile.

 

[wooden_reefer]

To clarify my point, this is one of the contingencies I specifically mentioned my theory did not account for. My assumption was that most people are not either so confident (or overconfident I'd argue) or foolish enough to fill a tank with fish in one fell swoop. If this is your plan, I do understand the argument for a "robust cycle". You will need a large enough population of bacteria to handle this bioload from the get go, and if you don't give them enough of an energy source from the beginning, the tank will more than likely not be ready. In this particular case, I would imagine the addition of an external ammonia source would be necessary. I think it's still quite a bit of a risk, though. But I guess if you can't decide what you should do, a cocktail shrimp or two probably isn't going to do anything more harmful than stink a bit and perhaps look kind of nasty for awhile.

The reason for a robust cycle may vary a bit. I'd agree that stocking as quickly as possible after a robust cycle takes some nerve and a lot of experience, and I definitely do not recommend that newbies do so. Apart from the nerve part, there is real issue with disease control, as I have said many times.

Instead of stocking as quickly as possible as I do after a cycle, one can stock rather fast, say half to 2/3 of the planned bioload in the five weeks after the cycle. Having a robust cycle definitely is needed. When you are at 8 units of bioload say at the end of fifth week, adding more livestock later may not be a big deal. Even long after the cycle, going from 8 to 9 or even 8 to 10 is much better than going from 1 to 2, or 5 to 10.

The alternative of not having a robust cycle (actually not realizing the correct way to cycle) is to stock slowly. If you add one unit of bioload and than wait 3 months before you add another one, you would be re-cycling with livestock. There is a large problem with is approach. It is to accept that re-cycling as you add livestock is necessary or acceptable. If is not, and ammonia at even quite sub-lethal level is not good for fish for and at any time.

There is a very easy way to add fish slowly and still avoid all re-cycling. You can cycle robustly the initial medium, and then you cycle separately. It is very easy.

This is the simpliest way to avoid re-cycling when you want to stock slowly, as newbies should.

1. At about the same time you cycle the initial medium. Get a round 5 gal bucket.

2. Fill it to two to three inches of crushed coral or LR rubble the size of pea to grapes.

3. Fill the bucket to 2/3 filled with DT water from WC.

4. Use a small powerhead to circulate the water. The roundness of the bucket is great in creating a nice circular current. Have the powerhead cling to the wall of the bucket.

5. Continually feed the bucket with fish food, imagining that there are a couple of medium sized fish in the bucket. Keep mock feeding of the imaginary fish.

6. When it comes time to add new fish. Use some of the gravel in the bucket to bump up the nitrification in the DT, You can put it in a nylon sack and let return water run over it. You can even rinse the cycled medium with tank water to rid it of any dirty cycling water.

7, replenish the medium in the bucket

8. In the coming weeks, gradually withdraw the added medium from the DT 10-15% bi-weekly.

Re-cycling is totally preventable. No fish should be exposed to any ammonia if the aquarist can prevent it. New tank syndrome for fish should not be a factor anymore.

BTW, I always stock as fast as I can for three reasons.

1. sometimes incompatibility issues are reduced.

2. It facilitates QT. I QT for at least eight weeks. Adding just ten fish in a 125 gal will not take 80 weeks of QT, generally about 10-12 weeks.

3. Better bargaining power with LFS.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Perhaps the process of cycling is made to appear more difficult to the newbie by "cycling a tank" and worse by cycling with recently collected LR.

Cycling per se is the intense cultivation of nitrification bacteria onto a medium of bioligcal filtration, period.


Not everything that is good for a tank to become established is a part of cycling. Decrease in nitrate or denitrification is NOT a part of cycling, neither is any algae or diatom issues.

More precise defining eases communication and, when you isolate an issue, you get a better understanding.

Cycling a dead medium is very very very easy. Absurdly easy.