Thats awesome, I want to make my own rock too. I think rock is WAY over priced. My first tank I have about 1,000 bucks in live rock. My current take is a 120 gal tank I used about 75 pounds of rock that was sitting around and did a whole bunch of foam. 6 months later you couldnt tell what was rock or foam.
CyclistMT's 300 Gal Plywood and Glass Build
- Thread starter CyclistMT
- Start date
muttley000
MTS Sufferer!
What is the purpose of the chicken grit? Rock looks great by the way!
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
You know, I probably should have worded that differently since there is such a thing as Chicken Grit which is silica based and was NOT used in this rock construction.
What I used was poultry calcium as a substitute for crused coral. I thought I was getting more oyster shell (which is what I had the last time I made rocks) but to my pleasant surprise, the brand I picked up actually is a crushed coral. I've actually purchased several more bags and plan to use it as my substrate since it's the perfect size for a plenum. Can't beat 50lb bags of crushed coral for $13.
Made4water
New member
Great build that tank is beautiful!
fjr_wertheimber
Combat-tested Reefer
Okay, so I've got to ask... What brand of poultry calcium did you use? I'd sure love to use that stuff for making/covering some of my DIY rock structure...
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Welcome to the thread Bushpig_2, Made4water, and fjr_wertheimber. And BP and fjr, thank you for your service.
I used Coastal brand poultry shell but as you can see from the pictures this is more crushed coral than shell. There is some crushed shell in there but as soon as I opened the bag, my first thought was that I could use this for my substrate. And my second thought was, I didn't have to buy that bag of Caribsea crushed coral to make my rock.
It's not quite this white once it's rinsed off. It's got a nice off white color like aragonite sand. Now, you will have to decide for yourself if you feel comfortable using a non aquarium specific product in your reef tank but for me a guaranteed analysis of minimum 97% calcium carbonate and the fact that this gets fed to an animal that ultimately produces something for human consumption is good enough for me.
Although I have no first hand knowledge, I'm willing to make the assumption that this stuff is probably mined from the same places we can get that dry rock from. It's probably just the crushed version of the dry rock. I'm even willing to bet that Caribsea crushed coral is a mined product from the posts I see about it having foreign materials in it.
Some might be worried that there could be bound phosphate in this product like there is in dry rock. I'm prepared to take care of that with lanthanum chloride dosing before the tank is fully online for livestock.
Speaking of lanthanum chloride, I was looking at a phosphate remover product marketed for aquariums (which I bet is lanthanum chloride although it wasn't listed on the bottle). It was over $20 for less than 8 oz of product. I can buy twice as much of lanthanum chloride in a product made for pools for less than half that price. That is why I'm willing to take a chance on non-aquarium products. I'm not opposed to a company making a profit and we are a niche hobby but come on, do you really need to jack the price up that much? Sorry, rant over.
Pond foam is on the way so hopefully I'll have a full update for you on the rock wall in a few days.
Current music selection- The Clash: Rock the Casbah
I used Coastal brand poultry shell but as you can see from the pictures this is more crushed coral than shell. There is some crushed shell in there but as soon as I opened the bag, my first thought was that I could use this for my substrate. And my second thought was, I didn't have to buy that bag of Caribsea crushed coral to make my rock.
It's not quite this white once it's rinsed off. It's got a nice off white color like aragonite sand. Now, you will have to decide for yourself if you feel comfortable using a non aquarium specific product in your reef tank but for me a guaranteed analysis of minimum 97% calcium carbonate and the fact that this gets fed to an animal that ultimately produces something for human consumption is good enough for me.
Although I have no first hand knowledge, I'm willing to make the assumption that this stuff is probably mined from the same places we can get that dry rock from. It's probably just the crushed version of the dry rock. I'm even willing to bet that Caribsea crushed coral is a mined product from the posts I see about it having foreign materials in it.
Some might be worried that there could be bound phosphate in this product like there is in dry rock. I'm prepared to take care of that with lanthanum chloride dosing before the tank is fully online for livestock.
Speaking of lanthanum chloride, I was looking at a phosphate remover product marketed for aquariums (which I bet is lanthanum chloride although it wasn't listed on the bottle). It was over $20 for less than 8 oz of product. I can buy twice as much of lanthanum chloride in a product made for pools for less than half that price. That is why I'm willing to take a chance on non-aquarium products. I'm not opposed to a company making a profit and we are a niche hobby but come on, do you really need to jack the price up that much? Sorry, rant over.
Pond foam is on the way so hopefully I'll have a full update for you on the rock wall in a few days.
Current music selection- The Clash: Rock the Casbah
Bushpig_2
New member
Have you thrown around the idea of an ATS? From what I've read they're pretty good at removing PO4 and NO3, almost to the point where Xenia and other softies don't really like you after you put one online in your system.
Plus you can make one relatively cheap, and algae doesn't come from a company. :rollface:
Heres the link for the ATS thread from advanced topics if you need more convincing: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420&page=1
And no problem, i do it for us so we can reef it up! :thumbsup:
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Yes, an ATS will be an integral part of the filtration scheme. It was discussed in post #7 on page 1 although it was very short. I will detail my idea for an ATS once I get to that point.
However, the ATS is meant for long term nutrient export. I will use lanthanum chloride to get rid of initial phosphate release IF I find that it's bound in the substrate. That way I hope to get a leg up on any potential early problems.
And looking through some of the previous posts I see that I've been less than polite and completely missed a shout out for zaheda joining the thread. So sorry it's belated but welcome zaheda!
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
A few days....two weeks. Yeah, that means the same thing. :hmm4: Clearly time is relative in my world.
I almost didn't even make this post because the look of the wall isn't in a "œfinished" state because substrate will be covering the bottom area so you won't see the exposed egg grate. But alas, I decided to press on anyway as I'm a ways away from getting substrate in. So on to the update!
Since the tank was put on the stand for the initial water test, I didn't really relish the thought of taking it back off to stand on end to do the rock wall. So I decided to attach egg grate with silicone first so I had something to to tie the rocks to prior to foaming. This also meant I was laying on my back working upside down to do some of the foaming. Yeah, fun times....
From all the posts I've read about foam and rock walls, I've found some of the most realistic looking ones used 90% rock and 10% foam. So that's what I set out to do. In the end I probably used the equivalent of 100-120 lbs of rock (remember I made all my rock and it ends up being much lighter than live rock) and 9 cans of foam. 9 CANS??!!!! Yes, 9 cans. I wanted to ensure all the space behind the egg grate and rock was filled with foam and in between the rock for structure. Of course there was quite a bit of waste because it's hard to tell how much is going to expand in a given area and I carved all the foam down to match the rock better rather than leaving it in the big blobs that oozed out.
I totally forgot to take pictures as the wall was progressing so all I have are the before and after shots. It's so hard to get dimensionality out of pictures on the web so I took a few of the same shot with different lighting to try and show that.
I got some more epoxy so I can finish the sump and my pre and post surge tanks. I've got all my outlets in a wired and will be installing the dedicated breakers for those in a couple of weeks. I've decided to install my humidity control duct work myself as I should be able to punch through the house pretty easily right above the foundation wall. With a little luck I'm hoping to have the tank fully plumbed in the next 2-3 months. I'll be sure to post updates as things progress but for now, that's it!
I almost didn't even make this post because the look of the wall isn't in a "œfinished" state because substrate will be covering the bottom area so you won't see the exposed egg grate. But alas, I decided to press on anyway as I'm a ways away from getting substrate in. So on to the update!
Since the tank was put on the stand for the initial water test, I didn't really relish the thought of taking it back off to stand on end to do the rock wall. So I decided to attach egg grate with silicone first so I had something to to tie the rocks to prior to foaming. This also meant I was laying on my back working upside down to do some of the foaming. Yeah, fun times....
From all the posts I've read about foam and rock walls, I've found some of the most realistic looking ones used 90% rock and 10% foam. So that's what I set out to do. In the end I probably used the equivalent of 100-120 lbs of rock (remember I made all my rock and it ends up being much lighter than live rock) and 9 cans of foam. 9 CANS??!!!! Yes, 9 cans. I wanted to ensure all the space behind the egg grate and rock was filled with foam and in between the rock for structure. Of course there was quite a bit of waste because it's hard to tell how much is going to expand in a given area and I carved all the foam down to match the rock better rather than leaving it in the big blobs that oozed out.
I totally forgot to take pictures as the wall was progressing so all I have are the before and after shots. It's so hard to get dimensionality out of pictures on the web so I took a few of the same shot with different lighting to try and show that.
I got some more epoxy so I can finish the sump and my pre and post surge tanks. I've got all my outlets in a wired and will be installing the dedicated breakers for those in a couple of weeks. I've decided to install my humidity control duct work myself as I should be able to punch through the house pretty easily right above the foundation wall. With a little luck I'm hoping to have the tank fully plumbed in the next 2-3 months. I'll be sure to post updates as things progress but for now, that's it!
tgunn
Active member
Out of curiosity, for the water softener salt you used for the rocks, did you break it up at all? The stuff I've seen locally are around 1/4 - 1/2" sized "pebbles" of salt.
I've been looking to start making rock for me next tank and was thinking of using crushed limestone as my aggregate -- although I live in the middle of the prairies, this area was once an ocean bottom, so crushed limestone is both plentiful and cheap.
Good tip on the lanthanum chloride phosphate remover; I'm all for using cheaper alternatives for aquarium products!
I've been looking to start making rock for me next tank and was thinking of using crushed limestone as my aggregate -- although I live in the middle of the prairies, this area was once an ocean bottom, so crushed limestone is both plentiful and cheap.
Good tip on the lanthanum chloride phosphate remover; I'm all for using cheaper alternatives for aquarium products!
tgunn
Active member
I imagine you must have just experimented with how much to put in the mortar mix to get the desired rock texture... I think its time for me to pick up some mortar and salt so I can get to experimenting with this. If I ever want to set up my future 300g tank I'm gonna need a lot of rock, and since the tank is a few years away I've got a LOT of time to get the rock just right and to cure it too.
I tried making DIY rock a number of years ago but it ended up being the most dense, heavy rock you could ever imagine. It was so dense it wouldn't cure after months of soaking. This time around I'm hoping to create very light and porous rock; yours looks like what I'm hoping to achieve.
Thanks,
Tyler
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
I did the same thing with the first couple of rocks I made many years ago. What I've found is that the exact recipe itself is not that important (everyone seems to have a slightly different variant). Just Portland Cement and aggregate in a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio will get you what you need. And salt is an aggregate in the mix, it just happens to disolve away later.
For the record, I used the following ratio by volume of material:
1 part Portland Cement
2 parts crushed coral (poultry calcium in my case)
1 part salt
I forgot to mention earlier that I think you'll be fine with the crushed limestone. There's a thread around here somewhere about folks using pulverized limestone for substrate.
What is the most important part of making poreous rock is to mix it as dry as possible. You want it about the consistency of cottage cheese but with minimal liquid. And if you do use salt, mix your other parts with the water first and add salt at the very last. Mix only long enough to get the salt evenly distributed and then start working with it.
Also, when making your rock in the mold, try to avoid packing it too much. That leads to denser rock as well. If you want to make a tall structure, try to make it in the mold horizontally. If you make tall structure vertically, the bottom gets more compacted and dense from all the weight above it. Or better yet, make a bunch of peices of rock and build your tall structure out of them. That ends up looking more realistic to me.
Oh, and if you do use salt in the mix, it will make your rock more brittle. Salt and cement aren't totally compatable. I didn't really have any problems with flat or rounded flatish pieces but most of the branches I made ended up breaking. I was careful with them but they were very brittle. If you make branches I would suggest not using salt on them.
If you haven't seen this thread yet, give it a read. You probably only need to look through the first 20-40 pages to get most if not all of the information you need. The next 2-4 splits (can't remember how many there were) just degenerate into mostly useless experiments that don't go anywhere. Trust me, I know. I read them all.
The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
One thing that isn't in the first part though that I did pick up on which makes sense, is don't cure your cement rock submerged in water. It will only take longer for the pH to come down. This is the cement cure I'm talking about. Cure your rocks for 30 days in air. Keep them damp for at least the first week if you can. Cement doesn't complete it's hydration process as well when submerged and that's where the high pH comes from. You may still have to cure for a bit under water with water changes to get a stable pH but the time should be greatly reduced. I'll be sure to let you know becuase none of this batch of rock was cured underwater.
Good luck!
tgunn
Active member
Thanks for the detailed explanation!
I suspect I used too wet of mix in the past, leading to it compacting down considerably. Good to get another confirmation on the limestone. I believe its mostly dolomitic and calcite limestone around here. Not the best for buffering, but using silica wouldn't have exactly given me that either.
I was, however, able to get some interesting shapes like this:
Lol, I've still got the original rock; it's been piled up along my fence in the back yard for the past 4 years. Maybe I should see if it has cured!
I think I'll start by making a number of small batches and experiment to see how thick of rock I can make with the salt added -- as you said I probably have to back off if I want to make branchy rocks. I'd ideally like to build a somewhat intricate aquascape with lots of branchy type rock pieced together. One of the LFSes here has a display tank with a load of branch rock in it, and I love how the fish dart in and out of the rockwork all over the place. My old tank used a lot of fiji rock that didn't lend well to such an open construction.
Now its interesting you mention NOT curing in water for the first while. My rock went straight into water and I was never able to get over the pH spikes. I'll try without water for a few months and then soak for a few months to ensure all the salt dissolves out.
Thanks again!
Tyler
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Welcome to the thread salali! Yes, we do have one shop here that has saltwater. I know the owners and it's a clean well run shop. It has the essentials and occasionally a nice piece of livestock but there is not much demand around here so they pretty much stock bread and butter. Their prices are fairly competitive to online but I still have to shop online to get the nice and different stuff. I'm actually hoping I can get the tank growing out nicely to the point that I can supply them frags of stuff they wouldn't normally see.
Tyler, shape wise those look good. Honestly that's half the battle. Use the same technique with a dryer mix and you've got it!
Thanks, ln2!
salali
New member
Good luck with your new amazing tank. I visited MT many times but I have not seen any LFS in Butte or Missoula. A friend told me there was one in Missoula and it is nice.
I met few people from MT at LFS in Spokane WA. They were driving for about 5 hours and get nice corals. I have asked them about how they get their fish and corals and they said online. They get in a grope of 3 or 4 so they can get free shipping.
I met few people from MT at LFS in Spokane WA. They were driving for about 5 hours and get nice corals. I have asked them about how they get their fish and corals and they said online. They get in a grope of 3 or 4 so they can get free shipping.
salali
New member
Good luck with your new amazing tank. I visited MT many times but I have not seen any LFS in Butte or Missoula. A friend told me there is one in Missoula and it is nice.
I met few people from MT at LFS in Spokane WA. They were driving for about 5 hours and get nice corals. I have asked them about how they get their fish and corals and they said online. They get in a grope of 3 or 4 so they can get free shipping.
I met few people from MT at LFS in Spokane WA. They were driving for about 5 hours and get nice corals. I have asked them about how they get their fish and corals and they said online. They get in a grope of 3 or 4 so they can get free shipping.
tgunn
Active member
Your recipe worked quite well. My results are here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19857126
I was a bit disappointed with the water softener salt as it had larger crystals than I'd have liked. Nothing a hammer won't fix though.
Thanks,
Tyler
