Dart threadwheel skimmer build

Re: Dart threadwheel skimmer build

John F
Do you have any photos of your wheels, or some more details. that could be helpful.

Mike,
How much space between the mesh and the volute? on the pumps I've seen it actually touching a little.

The space behind the wheel is a lot of space. do you have any idea what goes on back in that area when the pumps running? it probably does not matter, I just cant get a handle on it in my mind.

DSCN2056.jpg
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8356255#post8356255 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr.Biggs
smjtkj

Thanks for posting your builds lots of good info.

What height is your dome?
Do you have any pics of the build of the dome and flanges?
Thanks for looking and posting! The dome is 6 inches tall. Sorry no pics of the dome build. As I said it was don at global plastics.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8356336#post8356336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by john f
FWIW,
I tried the threadwheel idea instead of the needlewheel on my Dart.
It worked OK, maybe even as good as the needlewheel in testing, but I abandoned it because of the maintainence issue. Needlewheel is simply much easier to keep clean.

John
John F, Yeah I would like to know if you drove it with an air pump and did it cavitate quicker than the regular needlewheel?
 
Re: Re: Dart threadwheel skimmer build

Re: Re: Dart threadwheel skimmer build

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8356644#post8356644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roland Jacques
John F
Do you have any photos of your wheels, or some more details. that could be helpful.

Mike,
How much space between the mesh and the volute? on the pumps I've seen it actually touching a little.

The space behind the wheel is a lot of space. do you have any idea what goes on back in that area when the pumps running? it probably does not matter, I just cant get a handle on it in my mind.

DSCN2056.jpg
Roland the mesh is almost touching the front of the volute. Iy is 3 layers odf the mesh. There is probably a good 1/2 to 3/4 inch space behind the wheel. I don't have any idea what goes on behing there. I know spuzio glued an acrylic disc behind his factory impeller to attach needles to.

Mike
 
I am not trying to hijack the thread, but i thought that i would include this information.

I know it is really hard to see it well but this is the best photo i have of the impellar. I had the cut the pins down alot to allow it to fit.

PICT2739.jpg
 
smjtkj

I was looking for pic's of your assembly of the flanges to the dome, cutting of the hole, sanding etc..
You gave a good description of it, but was hoping you had photos as it is easier for myself to fully understand your build procedure.
 
pics

pics

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8357608#post8357608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr.Biggs
smjtkj

I was looking for pic's of your assembly of the flanges to the dome, cutting of the hole, sanding etc..
You gave a good description of it, but was hoping you had photos as it is easier for myself to fully understand your build procedure.
Sorry, I don't have any pics of the process. I used a 6 inch hole saw bought at lowes for the hole. I just used a large bench belt type sander to flatten it. It did not take long at all. I then put weldon 16 on both parts and put weight on it to cure.
 
My threadwheel was done exactly as Mike has done....3 layers of mesh.
Any more and the mesh will touch the front of the wetend.
I ran the threadwheel with air from an Alita AL-60. It would cavitate the pump at about 130 watts.
Really not much different than the needlewheel design I am using now.
I actually run the pump at 165-175 watts because any more air than that causes the bubbles to "burp" to often and disturbs the foam head too much.


John
 
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Ricky, good to see you buddy! The al-60 was the one I tried. The dart pump is pulling what the hailea puts out on it's own.
I did some more work on the impeller to see if I can beef up the amount of air it can handle. I tried Roland's suggestion of putting the mesh on the back of the impeller too. So now there is 3 in the front and 2 on the rear. I will fill the skimmer tomorrow night after work. I moved the sink in the tank room to make space.
If this doesn't do it I will try a combo of the Needles and the threadwheel. Like one layer of mesh to fill in between the needles. The needles will definitely do the trick on cavitation.
I really wanted to do it with the mesh alone though.

Mike
 
I added mesh to the back and also put more zip ties in to give aliitl more surface area to thrash the air. I'm hoping it works kind od like the needles.
DSCN2066.jpg

DSCN2062.jpg
 
did you mill the housing out so the wheel can fit in there better and not rub against the housing walls.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8361164#post8361164 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz
did you mill the housing out so the wheel can fit in there better and not rub against the housing walls.

Yeah I took a whole bunch out. I went down as much as I could without going thru.

Mike

DSCN2067.jpg
 
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Hi Mike

why you decide to put the mesh back of the impeller.

when you close the air valve to get fin bubble the impeller will spin more high and it will increase the pump watt .try the test without the mesh in the back to make it more optimum between the watt and the bubble.
after day or 2 the mesh will sit better on the pump but remmber the plasitc tie will release with the spin .

i am sure the bubble that this pump will make with the DLS and the air the pump will pull will be high then any regular impeller i am waitng to see the skimmer run you will be amazed from this :)

i am ordering now some different type i want to see if i can pull more then 22l/min from my gen x :)

good luck

michael
 
Thin the mesh a little. It could be too thick. Either that, or use gutter guard, not that stuff. I know that in general, bigger impeller means more flow, but not with needlewheels all the time. The centrifugal force is what the mesh is there for, with impellers, much of the water doesnt even pass through the impeller itself, it merely passes between the impeller and the shroud intake area to the outer ring of the pump housing. The same goes for needlewheels. Much of the water and bubble mixture doesnt even get mixed in the impeller, it bypasses the needlwheel all together and makes a b-line to the outlet, being pulverized by the other bubbles on the way... not the needlewheel.

What Im trying to say is that I doubt having such a thick and dense foam disk is doing much for you. The outer edge of the disk might lose some of its centrifugal force capabilities, but the thickness of the 'mat' isnt going to do much for bubbles... as its too thick for much of anything to make it to the inner depths of the mesh.

OTOH, too thick of a pad could place a restriction on the intake air and water mixture. If this space is too narrow, and the pad is as dense as it is, its going to make a restriction. Those tall needlewheels you see for the dart still alow alot of mix to pass through the needles... not so true with the dense mesh.

I would try it again with the pad thinned out.

And as for the pad behind the plate... there is no point. Being that the backside of the impeller cant draw air/water from anywhere, all it can do is cause cavitation if anything.

Thinning the pad by making its area thinner, or making its density less by using gutter guard rather than dense mesh might be a good idea. Also, hybrid designs seem to work well with pumps like this... keeping the regular impeller blades allows the pump to keep more of its throughput, but wrapping them with mesh allows them to blend better. It might be the best of both worlds here.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8362477#post8362477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
Hi Mike

why you decide to put the mesh back of the impeller.

when you close the air valve to get fin bubble the impeller will spin more high and it will increase the pump watt .try the test without the mesh in the back to make it more optimum between the watt and the bubble.
after day or 2 the mesh will sit better on the pump but remmber the plasitc tie will release with the spin .

i am sure the bubble that this pump will make with the DLS and the air the pump will pull will be high then any regular impeller i am waitng to see the skimmer run you will be amazed from this :)

i am ordering now some different type i want to see if i can pull more then 22l/min from my gen x :)

good luck

michael

Michael, I did run it for a whole day (30 hrs) with the 3 layers on the impeller. It did run great and made really fine bubbles. I was having problems with the dart cavitating when I put the air pump on it. Roland suggested I put the mesh on the back of the impeller too to see if it made a difference on the cavitation problem. Something I did think about was that all the time I was running the skimmer was fresh water with vinegar added to clean the body and parts. I know that in the past I could add tons more air to salt water thatn fresh water. I just confirmed that on another thread about ehiem needlewheels. The test were done with fresh and salt water. The saltwater test produced much better air production with all other things being the same. I am thinking that the pump will handle the air pump with salt water.
We will see tomorrow night!

Mike
 
Yeah hahn, I probably will take the mesh off the back. I am going to run it first just to see what happens though. The mesh on the back is the one that was on the front. I took it off earlier today and thinned out what was left. It is visibly thinner is the last photo of the wheel with the mesh on the back. I am pretty sure I will be able to run the alita al 60 on there in salt water, maybe not full throttle, but alot more than I was getting in the fresh water. I think ultimately I will settle on the Al 40, hopefully anyway.
 
hahnmeister

when i test with thin mesh in my skimmer the result wasn't so good with 3 layer i got the maximum air with 4 layer the pump draw down . i did one more test and i put more layer out and little near to the center it was very good but i couldn't catch it good . i find some matrial that it's come round but i need to check when i can get it in low price:) i think if the mesh will be like ballon out and more thin near to the center it will be the best way and the optimum . i agree with you about the mesh back on the impeller. but i can't explain that what i got from this material i can't see from any other test i hope we will hear on new or better option .

this is how it's look when i skim "dry" (and it's not stop to pull out foam)

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this is the bubble size


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this is the air that i pull

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and this is the result

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i want to know what you have to suggest or can give me better result then what i try with this material i will like to try and to compare it.

thank you
michael
 
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