Debate of the Decade: Reef-Safe Dwarf Angels

[gofor100]

Hello Everyone,

I'm not here to really debate whether or not the Dwarf and Pygmy Angels (in the family Centropyge) are "reef-safe" (and I know this has a different definition to different people), but more to try to settle the debate and discuss how some seem to do well in reef-tanks without any major instances with coral/clams, while others are like me at a buffet. Which led me to the question, "WHY?".

My personal thoughts are that since Dwarf/Pygmy Angels are not known to eat coral polyps and/or clams in the wild, that their natural instincts do not lead them to this behavior, but rather the environmental circumstances they face in a home aquarium.

After some thought, I figured that there are certain variables to consider that may lead to success or failure with these fish in reef tanks:

> The Fish: such as where the fish came from and how old it was when placed in captivity. I truly don't believe that two fish of the same family that came into captivity at approximately the same age, and came from approximately the same area would act differently in the same exact environment. Therefore, if we can nail down a recommended age/place of origin, maybe more people won't have to purchase and then remove these beautiful fish from their reef tanks.

> The Aquarium: Obviously, if you've read any literature or posts on this website (and others), there seems to be certain corals/clams that Dwarf Angels are prone to "pick" at, whether it is due to color, type, etc. But one must also consider what alternative food sources are naturally occurring in the aquarium itself (outside of what the caretaker is providing manually) such as algae provided on LR/aquarium walls.

> The Caretaker: This, I feel, is one of the biggest varying factors that may influence how the Dwarf Angel does in the reef-tank. How many times does the caretaker feed the tank? What does he/she feed? Do they quarantine the fish before it goes into the tank to not only make sure it does not have any diseases/problems, but also to make sure it is eating before unleashing it into a tank full of "new" things to taste?

So I leave it open to the smart and experienced minds of REEF CENTRAL to discuss this topic and hopefully shed some additional light on a subject that might be less "chance/luck" and more "calculated success".

To help in this discussion, try to answer the following questions:

1. What type of Dwarf Angel do you have, how big was he/she when you got them and where (if you know) did they come from?

2. Does your Dwarf Angel pick at any corals/clams? If so, how much and which types (please provide detail like type of coral/clam and color)?

3. How big is your tank and how much LR do you have in it (any algae growth in tank)?

4. What other fish do you have in your tank? This might indirectly tell us whether there is a competitor for the same food source (algae) which leads the angel to pick at corals.

5. How many times do you feed per day and what do you feed?

6. Did you quarantine the fish before putting them in the DT?

7. Finally, how long have you had the fish, and how long have they been good/bad residents of the tank?

Your feedback is appreciated!!!

 

[zooty]

I guess you have already read this thread?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1661153

 

[gofor100]

Well thanks zooty... I'll take a look at it. No use in duplicating...

 

[scchase]

My general experiences/ observations of Centropyge sum it up real easily. There are 2 sub genus in the family in general the subgenus Centropyge is not reef safe this includes the likes of Lemonpeels, Eiblis, and Keyholes the other subgenus is Xiphypops these almost always are the ones listed as more reefsafish and include flames, pygmies, and multicolors. They all have underslung mouths as well.

 

[gofor100]

On second thought, now that I've had a chance to look at the above mentioned thread, although I am asking for some of the same info, I think I'm be taking it a step further by finding out if an angel is picking, what environmental factors might be playing a part in them picking vs. other angels of the same family not picking.

I'm doing this because, as the results in this very educational referenced thread, everyone you ask about putting a dwarf angel (or any angel for that matter) in a reef, always responds with "it's a crapshoot" or "luck of the draw", but I think it is more than that. I think there are certain environmental factors that lead certain angelfish to picking, rather than just being "lucky". THAT is the purpose of THIS thread.

So I'll use the info found from that thread and add an additional layer to the issue.

Zooty: Thanks for referencing the thread though... very helpful.

 

[gofor100]

For ease of reading, I'll reply with the format I provided above:

1. What type of Dwarf Angel do/did you have, how big was he/she when you got them and where (if you know) did they come from?
> Flame Angel, 2.5 inches when purchased, LFS did not know for sure, but thought he came from the Christmas Islands.

2. So I guess an additional part to this question is "What type of coral/clams do you keep?"Does your Dwarf Angel pick at any corals/clams? If so, how much and which types (please provide detail like type of coral/clam and color)?
> Only kept Pink Fungia, Green Star polyps, White Clove polyps, Green and Red Button Coral, Leather, Galaxy, Brown/Yellow Tip Torch, various green and purple mushrooms, various Zoas; picked at Red and Green Brain Coral, but not sure if the Brain showed signs of distress before (and that's why he picked) or after the picking.

3. How big is your tank and how much LR do you have in it (any algae growth in tank)?
> 60 gallons w/100+ lbs of LR

4. What other fish do you have in your tank? This might indirectly tell us whether there is a competitor for the same food source (algae) which leads the angel to pick at corals.
> Kept Clownfish, Sunburst Anthias, various gobies

5. How many times do you feed per day and what do you feed?
> Fed 2 to 3 times per day- various frozen mysis/brine foods, angel forumula, and Formula 1/2 pellets

6. Did you quarantine the fish before putting them in the DT? No; fish was eating within the day though.

7. Finally, how long have you had the fish, and how long have they been good/bad residents of the tank? Had the fish for 1 year until power went out and died because of a lack of oxygen (needless to say I now have a generator).

 

[melanotaenia]

Your title is an Oxymoron

Dwarf Angels as a rule are not reef safe. Certain specimens people keep may be better behaved than others, but that is about it.

 

[gofor100]

Interesting you say that melanotaenia... your statement is exactly what I'm trying to disprove, or at least to show it is not ENTIRELY true.

Plus, if you'd read my initial posting, you would see that I do acknowledge that "reef-safe" means different things to different people. Reef-safe TO ME, would mean that the fish does not do irreparable damage to the corals/invertebrates within the tank. Almost every fish on the reef has the potential of doing some damage (directly or indirectly) to invertebrates within the reef. This is obviously compounded when we "lock them up" in our tanks.

For instance, people generally have cravings for certain foods because they are lacking in a certain vitamin or mineral. I would assume that animals are the same way (i.e., the reason dogs eat their own poo is either because they are bored or because they gobble their food down too quick to absorb necessary vitamins within the food). Similarly, to get a better idea WHY some angels eat/pick at corals and others don't is what I'm trying to figure out here. Are they doing it out of boredom (nothing else to pick on)? Are they doing it because the caretaker is not providing them with a varied diet (not enough sponge/algae/etc.)? You get the idea...

If the hobbyists before us did not push the envelope a little further and always accepted what was previously considered "fact", fishkeeping would never had made it to where it is today.

So let's try to keep the "oxymoron comments" off the thread, and try to delve a little deeper into this topic.

Thanks.

 

[Bax]

I got my CB about six years ago as the smallest CB I have ever seen available in a local LFS.

It started off in my 26 bow front loaded with LR.

It moved to my 75 with over 150 pounds of LR

Then to my 120 with well over 200 pounds of LR

It is now in a 75 holding tank waiting for a 375 I am hoping to set up soon.

It has been with clams (max, crocea, deresa, squamy), sea stars, mainly SPS, some LPS, a few gorgs, a few softies & zoas it is the only fish I still have from that original 26 bow.

An absolute favorite of mine.

 

[saix88]

Your title is an Oxymoron

Dwarf Angels as a rule are not reef safe. Certain specimens people keep may be better behaved than others, but that is about it.

No his title is not an Oxymoron because dwarf angels don't eat inverts etc which make up a "reef" sure some can eat corals and some won't making them "coral safe." The Majority of the time when sites/books list something as not reef safe or with caution is because it will eat your inverts.

Yea certain fish may act better than others, but there are contributing factors just like people. "oh you got a crazy fish, better put him in the nut house" WHY? What is making him act this way.

1. Potter's Angel and was about an inch and a half upon purchase.

2. I have mainly sps ranging from deepwater to hairy millis, pipe organ, and some xenia. I also have a test acan in the tank to see if he will eat it, it's been about 3 weeks in the tank and he doesn't touch it. I don't plan on doing LPS but wanted to see if he would go for it.

3. 90g tank with about 150lbs of live rock and plan on adding more later. He picks and swims between the rocks all day.

4. Other fish in the tank are a midas blenny, 2 banggai cardinals, pylei wrasse, mccosker's flasher wrasse, yellow coris wrasse, mandarin, blue spotted jawfish. Also there are emerald crabs, peppermint shrimp, various snails, cleaner shrimp, and a thorny oyster.

5. I feed NLS flakes 3 times a day and PE mysis once a day.

6. No I didn't.

7. I've had the potter's for about 3 months. He is a model citizen and lets the other fish know it's his tank and then gets along with them.

 

[zooty]

On second thought, now that I've had a chance to look at the above mentioned thread, although I am asking for some of the same info, I think I'm be taking it a step further by finding out if an angel is picking, what environmental factors might be playing a part in them picking vs. other angels of the same family not picking.

I'm doing this because, as the results in this very educational referenced thread, everyone you ask about putting a dwarf angel (or any angel for that matter) in a reef, always responds with "it's a crapshoot" or "luck of the draw", but I think it is more than that. I think there are certain environmental factors that lead certain angelfish to picking, rather than just being "lucky". THAT is the purpose of THIS thread.

So I'll use the info found from that thread and add an additional layer to the issue.

Zooty: Thanks for referencing the thread though... very helpful.

I realized that later on too. :spin1:

I like where you are going with this. IME feeding has been one of the key triggers to me. From the people I have talked to if they feed at least 1 or 2 times a day and stick with the Xiphypops subgenus like scchase pointed out they have had much better luck.

 

[zooty]

1. What type of Dwarf Angel do/did you have, how big was he/she when you got them and where (if you know) did they come from?
> Flame Angel, 3 inches when purchased, Live Aquaria, not sure where originally.
Potters Angel- 3 inches- Saltwaterfish.com, not sure
Pygmy Cherub- 2 inches- Saltwaterfish.com, not sure

2. Does your Dwarf Angel pick at any corals/clams? If so, how much and which types (please provide detail like type of coral/clam and color)?
> Flame- zoas, mushrooms, LPS (acans and euphyllia), some SPS (mostly yellow and blue), clam (blue) never touched anything
Potters Angel- zoas, mushrooms, LPS (acans and euphyllia), leathers, star polyps, never touched anything
Pygmy Cherub- zoas, mushrooms, LPS (acans and euphyllia), leathers, star polyps, never touched anything

3. How big is your tank and how much LR do you have in it (any algae growth in tank)?
> Flame- 75 with 150 lbs LR, from new tank to mature tank, moved to a 180 after 3 years along with all the LR plus more non-live rock (~250 pounds).
Potter & Pygmy-140 with 200 lbs LR, limted algae as they went in shortly after the tank was set-up

4. What other fish do you have in your tank? This might indirectly tell us whether there is a competitor for the same food source (algae) which leads the angel to pick at corals.
> The flame was kept with a Foxface for 1 year then a Powder Brown Tang for 2 years. Along with other assorted fish including a 6-line wrasse then scooter blenny and a mandarin. Also had a lawnmower blenny and pseudochromis
P&P- Foxface, kole tang, clowns, engineer goby, pseduochromis

5. How many times do you feed per day and what do you feed?
> Fed at least once and usually twice per day- various frozen mysis/brine foods, flake food, nori once a week

6. Did you quarantine the fish before putting them in the DT? No

7. Finally, how long have you had the fish, and how long have they been good/bad residents of the tank? Had the flame for 3 years in the 75 then moved to the 180 but died 6 months later after the PBT dies. Of note, the 75 had sponges growing and when the rock was moved it became more inaccessible. Additionally half of the rock that went into the larger tank was dead. I think the decrease in available micro-algae hurt both fish.
Pygmy and Potter we only had one year as the tank broke (long story). Don't know what became of the cherub but the Potter went to someone else who only feed every 2-3 days but had a lot of algae in the tank. He developed ich and eventually dies.

The Potter and pygmy were in a tank with a foxface who definitely nipped at zoas. We initially though it was the angels but looking back it was the Foxface. One fish also wiped out a colony of featherdusters that were growing on the rock in the 140 when it was set-up.

Good luck with the research! We are sticking with genicanthus for now though.

 

[gofor100]

Awesome answers guys... keep 'em coming!

I'm already seeing some trends with some of the posts and friends that I've personally talked to.

As more posts come through, I'll do something similar to what was previously done (in the post referenced by zooty) and make a summary of my findings and post them, which will hopefully shed some additional light on this subject.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

reef safe = poor choice of words.

tip: research species compatibility. The info is already out there.

 

[gofor100]

Gary, you are absolutely correct... "reef-safe" is a poor choice of words, but as you know, it is a term commonly used to describe whether a fish can be reliable in various types of reef tanks... plus I didn't think that a thread title of "Debate of the Decade: Angels that don't eat Frogspawn, Torch Coral, and Bubble Coral, but might pick on clams, some SPS and LPS" would have fit.

So Gary, are you saying that there is already printed/posted results/research showing that if you were to get Angel "X", at "Y" length, with approximately "Z" lbs. of LR, in an "A" gallon aquarium, keeping "B", "C", "D", and "E" corals/clams of "F", "G", "H", and "I" colors, while feeding "J", "K", and "L", "M" times per day, that you will have "N" % chance of successfully keeping an angel fish in your reef tank???

I've never seen it, but like I said before, if it's already been done, I don't need to waste my time doing research myself... exactly what research are you referring to?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

magnitude of scope

magnitude of scope

the bigger picture. Research published works and hobbyist experiences alike.

You can't expect to toss one thread out on an internet message board and get complete information on a whole family of fishes.
You can use this board to fill in the questions you seek. The more specific the question the better!
I strongly suggest researching the compatibilty of species. Use scientific names in your research.

Example: is Centropyge fill in the blank compatible with fill in the blank

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

this is an excellent resource

this is an excellent resource

http://www.amazon.com/Angelfishes-B...6/ref=tag_stp_st_edpp_url/187-7239535-8596926

Centropyge group starts on page 217

One generalized tip for keeping "not reef safe" fishes in a reef aquarium with living corals is to feed them often and well and expect the worst.

 

[SDguy]

I had a pair of argi angels. One ravaged acros and gorgonians, one never touched anything. Pretty much sums up the idea that each fish is individual, and you take your chances.

 

[gofor100]

Yep, I've read that book... in fact, I've got it on my lap right now. And although it discusses GENERAL feeding habits (which specifically states that they are not known to feed on coral polyps/clams in the wild, but rather the slime they exude), I am trying to find some data that would lead me to a conclusion as to why some angel fish of a certain type (i.e., Coral Beauty) seem to ignore all corals and clams, and another of the SAME type tend to eat the mucus exuding from the corals and clams.

Am I not making sense in my thread??? Please someone let me know if the purpose of this thread is not clear, because I seem to be getting a lot of people pointing me in different directions to find my answer, when in fact NONE of those sources seem to have analyzed what I am trying to analyze...

The purpose of this thread was hopefully to educate not only myself, but others on this website regarding how environmental factors may play a part in the success they have with their angel in a reeftank, and that we may not be playing Russian roulette with our reeftanks by putting these lovely fish in them.

 

[tcmfish]

I think a lot of it depends on the SIZE OF THE CORALS!!!! And the type of corals. SPS, mushrooms, and softies should be the most safe. Feed lots, and if the corals are large and there a lots of them there shouldn't be a problem.

Also they do feed on lots of algae in the wild, but in our tanks we often try to limit algae....