Debate of the Decade: Reef-Safe Dwarf Angels

[gofor100]

Username: it's awesome that you stuck in there with the angel and re-evaluated how/what you were feeding instead of just taking the fish out. I think it definitely sheds some light on the fact that the "reef-safeness" of an angel might depend more on the caretaker (you and me) than it does the fish itself, irregardless of what is inside the tank with it (i.e., clams, types of corals, or competing herbivores).

If more people have stories like yours, it might tend to prove that a varied and frequent diet might make these fish 100% reef-safe (or at least no longer considered a reef-safe "with caution" fish). Don't get me wrong, there are always exceptions to the rule (i.e., TNTFISHY's situation, he/she's had the fish for 2 to 3 years and only feeds the tank 2 or 3 times PER WEEK without any irreparable "picking" of corals/clams). But much like Tangs that pick at corals/clams because there is not enough algae in the tank or in their diet, maybe we can start looking at some angels the same way. The new rule could be "If fed one to two times per day, with a consistent supplement of nori or some other vegetation, the dwarf/pygmy angel is considered safe with all SPS, LPS, and clams." Somone call Scott W. Michael to see if he might consider updating his books (kidding of course).

Further, there certainly are types of dwarf/pygmy/"regular" angels out there that have more of an appetite or higher/different nutritional needs than others, requiring more frequent/varied feedings than others. That might explain why some of the "larger" angels (who have a diet consisting more of sponge than dwarf/pygmy angels that eat mainly algae) are a greater risk to picking. However, I would venture to say that those aquarists that keep the "larger" angels successfully in reef tanks, either have them in relatively large aquariums with plenty of LR to pick on (or if they do pick on corals, they are not picking on just one and thus not causing irreparable damage), or feed them frequently and with enough variation that they have little to no interest in corals/clams.

Interesting stuff guys... keep it coming!

 

[melanotaenia]

Well, so far, it looks like 100% success rate

Just kidding, I know that there are unsuccessful stories out there, but for the ones that have posted (first of all thank you), it looks like the size of the aquarium does not have an affect on the success rate, however, since all sizes of aquariums (albeit, not all long term) have successfully kept angels (specifically dwarf and pygmy angels) AS LONG AS they fed them at least once a day.

I don't think that it hurts that many of you feed nori on a regular basis.... but flakes and frozen food seem to keep them in check.

However, since we haven't seen the unsuccessful stories (and their environments), its kind of difficult to narrow down the factors that matter.

Keep posting guys (successful and unsuccessful)!

You might want to re-read your thread OP. I am definitely not a success story. My Flame made me so angry when he ripped my zoas apart. And I fed him all the time. Plenty of food. He was always fat. Granted his tank was 40 gallons, so no huge tank for the little guy, but then, one day, he decides to take apart some of my coral, for no reason at all. The zoas were doing find which is why I was angry; some angels attack fleshy type corals when they are on their way out (dying or losing tissue).

I have a feeling you are not going to get many people to respond to this thread with horror stories.

 

[gofor100]

Sorry, I must have overlooked the post in the midst of the overwhelming criticism I was getting from a few posters.

Either way, maybe you can shed some additional light on your experience... you say you fed him "plent of food" and he was "fat", but WHAT exactly were you feeding him and how frequently (meaning, did you feed him a little throughout the day or a lot when you got home from work).

Reason why I ask for the clarification is because I know a lot of people that eat a lot, and are "fat", but it's not because they are healthy or are eating what they are supposed to (actually quite the opposite).

 

[gofor100]

But seriously melanotaenia, why such the negative vibe???

If everyone posts that "I don't think this thread will help" or "I don't think that unsuccessful people will post" then it makes it more likely to happen. You've obviously made up your mind about dwarf angels (and other angels), but you don't need to de-value a thread that you personally don't feel will provide additional information.

I would still really appreciate your feedback, but please provide it without inserting negative "jabs".

Thanks.

 

[falconut]

I have two in my 90 gallon. Flame Angel and a Half Black Angel

I've had the Flame Angel for a little over 2-1/2 years and the Half Black Angel for about 1-1/2 weeks in my display tank.

The Flame has been with Bubble Coral, Ricordea, Mushroom, Zoas, Kenya Tree and Finger Leather, Galaxea, Frogspawn, Hammer, Crocea Clam and Xenia. The Half Black and Flame are now in with Bubble Coral, Ricordea, Mushroom, Zoas, Kenya Tree and Finger Leather.

I've only ever seen the Flame pick at Xenia, I believe to the point that it stoped opening and shriveled away. I've now seen the Half Black pick at the Kenya Tree, Finger Leather, Zoas and my Bubble Coral.

I feed Frozen Mysis, Frozen Mega Marine Angel, Hikari 'S' Pellets and Prime Reef Flakes usually once a day. I also feed some Live Blackworms, but mostly handfeed them to my Copperband.

I don't know where either one came from, but the Flame Angel was about 2-1/2" and from another local reefer the Half Black Angel is around 4" and from my LFS.

I will give the Half Black some time before I decide to try to remove her/him. Both the Kenya and Leather stopped opening for a few days, but the Kenya opened back up and it looks like the Leather may be too. Some of the Zoas started to look crappy, which is why I started to carefully observe him/her. I have to semi-hide, because when the fish see me they ruxh the side looking for food. She went over and nipped the Kenya several times, a couple of pecks at some of the Zoas and one peck at the Bubble. We'll see how time tells.

 

[iamwhatiam52]

Oh no! This looks like a test. I hope spelling doesn't count.

Singapore angels are included here because they are sometimes listed with the Dwarfs. I do not consider them dwarfs since they are Chaetodontoplus

1. What type of Dwarf Angel do you have, how big was he/she when you got them and where (if you know) did they come from? From the pet store silly!
2 Centropyge argi (Cherub/Pygmy Angelfish) 3/4"
1 Centropyge loricula (Red/Flame Angelfish) 1 1/2"
2 Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus (Vermiculated/Singapore Angelfish) 1 1/4" and 2"

2. Does your Dwarf Angel pick at any corals/clams? If so, how much and which types (please provide detail like type of coral/clam and color)?
Cherubs and flame, never.
Singapores nip mostly Pocillipora damicornis, sometimes birdnests, but not enough to do any harm. Occasionally nip other sps and lps.

3. How big is your tank and how much LR do you have in it (any algae growth in tank)?
180 gal, over 200 pounds rock, no algae.

4. What other fish do you have in your tank? This might indirectly tell us whether there is a competitor for the same food source (algae) which leads the angel to pick at corals.
Yellow tang, pair Ocellaris, pair black clown gobies, pair mandarins,tailspot blennie, 2 trimma gobies, pair tiger gobies, bicolor blennie, sunburst anthius, Bangi cardinal, 2 sailfin blennies

5. How many times do you feed per day and what do you feed?
2 or 3 times a day. Frozen mysis, cyclopeez, chopped shrimp, clam, scallops daily. Nori every few days. Live blackworms sometimes. When I can get it, colonial tunicates and sponge from nearby bay.

6. Did you quarantine the fish before putting them in the DT?
Cherubs and flame, no. That was before I learned the hard way.
Singapores yes, especially since they need to be fattened up before being released into the fray of my main tank.

7. Finally, how long have you had the fish, and how long have they been good/bad residents of the tank?
Cherubs 4 years, now 1 1/2" and 2", never any problem.
Flame 2 years, now 2 1/4", never a problem.
Singapores, 3 months and 6 months, now 2" and 2 3/4", always pick but do no harm.
Behavior of my angels has not change since introducing them but singapores have not been here long enough to draw any conclusions.


Other info:
No clams, no acans, nothing exotic or expensive.
Wide variety of sps. Xenia, anthelia, yellow polyps, gorgonians, RBTA, tube anemones, candy corals, mushrooms, hammer.

 

[grimlykindo]

I'm trying to catch my coral beauty as we speak! Here is the info:

40 breeder with 50-60lbs of LR - maroon clown, firefish goby, cleaner shrimp

Corals include large torch, finger leather, zoos, palys, Kenya tree, ricordea covered rock

Had CB or 2 months and feed frozen and pellet formula 2, spirulina enhanced brine, nls, prime reef flakes - alternate food and feed 1-2 times a day. CB is very thick and healthy looking.

CB was fine for 2 months and just the other day it started pecking at my purple finger leather and Kenya tree. ricordea rock was also completed cleared overnight. I've sat at watched the CB peck at the finger leather and Kenya tree so much that the corals are showing physical lacerations and are very closed up and shrunken.

I stepped up feeding in hopes to curb the CBs destruction but it doesn't seem to be helping... Once I catch this sucker he is going straight back to the lfs!

 

[gofor100]

Great feedback guys...

Grimlykindo: I'm really sorry to hear about your difficulty here, but maybe we can all learn from your experience. Just a few more questions...

> Have you been feeding 1 to 2 times per day throughout, or is that the amount that you've recently changed it to since you've noticed the CB picking?

> Have you tried putting a rock/clip with nori in the tank? (which might help curb the CB's desire to continuously pick at the injured corals)

> How big was the CB when you got it?

> Did you quarantine the CB before putting it in the DT?

 

[grimlykindo]

Great feedback guys...

Grimlykindo: I'm really sorry to hear about your difficulty here, but maybe we can all learn from your experience. Just a few more questions...

> Have you been feeding 1 to 2 times per day throughout, or is that the amount that you've recently changed it to since you've noticed the CB picking?

> Have you tried putting a rock/clip with nori in the tank? (which might help curb the CB's desire to continuously pick at the injured corals)

> How big was the CB when you got it?

> Did you quarantine the CB before putting it in the DT?

I have been feeding 1-2 times a day since I started the tank - I upped the feedings to 2-3 times a day once the mayhem started and also target fed the CB more to insure that it was getting more then enough food.

I have not tried feeding nori yet - I had considered it though

The CB was very small when I got it - probably 2 inches - it grew considerably fast to about 2.5 inches in 2 months

I did not quarantine at home but my lfs will hold fish for 2 weeks in its own 10 gallon tank. In the 2 weeks at the lfs the CB was eating well and looked great so I added him right away to my DT.

Hopefully this answers your questions - I'm not attempting to keep my CB - he is out ASAP. He has already damaged corals much more expensive then he was! I only paid $25 for the CB.

 

[Sheol]

Well, since my C. argi never touched anything in front of me, with the possiple exception of Zoas ( only pretty ones tho, sigh..) I could say 3 years.
Unfortunately, he sucumbed to the tank heater malfunction tank crash last month.
****
I'm currently ignoring my own advice right now & trying a C. bicolor. I don't know if its the beauty or the challenge in keeping one successfully, but I've fallen in love.
Only a week is too soon to tell. Plus, aside from some Favia LPS & a few Discosoma corallimorphs & one Rhodactis, there isn't much but really nice LR in the tank. Time will tell.
I'd go for an argi again, but they are so blasted aggressive in smaller tanks.

BTW, ReefSafe is an Oxymoron, as even our corals will gladly take out other coral.

Matthew

 

[greech]

1. What type of Dwarf Angel do you have, how big was he/she when you got them and where (if you know) did they come from?

2.5 to 3" Potters from LADD.

2. Does your Dwarf Angel pick at any corals/clams? If so, how much and which types (please provide detail like type of coral/clam and color)?

No picking so far.

3. How big is your tank and how much LR do you have in it (any algae growth in tank)?

40 Breeder with approximately 30 lbs of LR. Some GHA growing on upper rocks.

4. What other fish do you have in your tank? This might indirectly tell us whether there is a competitor for the same food source (algae) which leads the angel to pick at corals.

1 B/W Occelaris (no competition)

5. How many times do you feed per day and what do you feed?

Once per day in the evening. I feed frozen Hykari Mysis and Spirulina Brine, Formula 1 and 2 flakes and NLS pellets. The Potters eats all foods listed with a gusto!

6. Did you quarantine the fish before putting them in the DT?

No

7. Finally, how long have you had the fish, and how long have they been good/bad residents of the tank?

Fish was added to the tank on 1/4/10.

Obviously I have not had my Potters very long but I researched this very same issue (along with other care requirements) quite a bit. I have two frags of SPS and several LPS. The Potters was one of the main reasons I wanted a marine tank so I made up my mind that if I got one that nipped the corals would have to go. From what I was able to gather, having a super clean tank is not an ideal situation for a Potters. Not saying you should have the fish swimming in nitrate rich water (or any nitrates for that matter) but having some GHA is a good thing when keeping one. I don't run a sump or skimmer but I am a fanatic about water changes. My test kits are consistently negative for nitrates (contribute that to a low bioload and WC schedule) and my GHA has never gotten out of control. I feel my lack of skimmer and religious WC schedule keeps the GHA in pretty good balance. I see my Potters grazing throughout the day and she goes nuts when I feed the tank at night. Obviously time will tell but I am fairly optimistic so far.

 

[ECU stew]

In my opinion this is a good thread, but its really just making me want a flame angel more.

 

[gofor100]

Grimlykindo: I'm really sorry that things aren't working out yet with your CB. If you could some how place the target corals either in another holding tank or put a divider in the tank while you're trying to catch him, that might help relieve the corals of some of the stress that is being caused by the CB picking. Or you could cut a 2 liter plastic bottle in half, poke some holes in the bottle, and try to cover the coral so they can still get light and flow (if they aren't huge corals).

I would be interested to see if anyone that feeds their dwarf/pygmy angels nori on a regular basis (at least once or twice a week) has trouble with them picking at their corals. That might be one of the variables that increases success since nori might bring them nutrients more similar to the food they eat in the wild, as well as mimic feeding actions (picking a stationary rock or clip) found in the wild. One might be able to infer that since processed human foods typically contain lower nutritional values than raw or "unprocessed" foods, that the same could be said of animal/fish food (i.e., flake/frozen foods vs. actual vegetable matter like nori). Same with habitual actions, if a fish has evolved to pick at stationary objects (i.e., rocks) to obtain its food, then one could infer this action won't stop just because of a change of scenery. So if we offer their food source in abundance and in a manner that mimics their natural feeding habits (i.e., algae growth on rocks or nori on a clip or rubberbanded on a rock), then this might deter them from picking on invertebrates that they don't naturally feed on in the wild.

Also looking at grimlykindo's situation, although a 40 gallon is not small, it might be a "minimum size" to increase success of keeping a dwarf/pygmy angel in a reef tank, since the smaller tank typically means less surface area of LR for the angel to pick at.

Just a few thoughts that are by no means conclusions based on the info everyone has posted so far.

Keep it coming guys!!! Great info...

 

[MikeandNicole]

We have had several dwarf angels species in the past, they were kept in mixed reef tanks (SPS, LPS, zoas):

Pygmy angel: Great fish, a bit aggressive but never picked at anything. Great sized fish for the nano people, killed in a powerhead.
Coral Beauty: Way too aggressive, we gave him away. Never picked at anything but just was not a big fan of the fish.
Flame Angel: Love this fish, have not seen him go after corals. I saw him nip at a zoa once, but I think that was more exploratory than attacking. We still have one in our 30g and even though he is the king of the tank, he is not all out aggressive. Our blue spot jawfish that we recently added is having no problem with him.
Flameback Angel: Can be agressive, no doubt he is the king of his tank (20g). We have had a bunch of fish jump in this tank (gobies) and I am sure he has had something to do with that. Does not go after corals at all. We bought him pretty small, half inch, and he has been doing great.

We have fed all of them Rod's Reef which they love and are both pretty fat. We feed them daily in the evening. We will add nori every now and again, but not on a regular basis. We had a clam in the 30g with the flame angel. I never saw him go after if but we lost it after about a month. Don't know if it was him or something else, but when I was watching he never went near it.

The flame angel we have had for probably a year, the flameback for about 9 months.

We did not quarantine the flame, he was in the LFS for a while and looked very healthy. The flameback we did not quarantine and got a small case of ich, with proper feeding and supplements (selcon and garlic) it went away with no losses.

The flame angel leaves our clowns alone, but will chase the gold assesor basslets but they are much smaller than him. The flamback shows aggression at our cardinals but they are fine with food. I did see him nip at our dracula goby before it jumped.

 

[username in use]

I think one of the keys as mentioned before, in a smaller tank it shouldnt be "pristine" i.e. there should be some algae growths. I actually like the look of some of the green algaes that pop up here and there. I mean, wild reefs are something like 80% algae or something right? But it gives them something to pick at all day when your gone. Case in point you can see some outcroppings of green algae. There are pods crawling all over and through them, so its algae with a little meat to it.

 

[Patroklos]

one thing that always has come up in the hundreds of threads on this topic is aquarium size. The smaller the aquarium the more likely it is that any Angelfish will pick on any given coral.

I don't think the size of the aquarium has anything to do with whether an angel picks at corals at all. Rather, the larger the aquarium the more corals we have normally, and thus the damage can be spread so thinly that we never really notice.

 

[falconut]

I managed to catch my Half Black very easily. I placed a clean container (3" x 6") in and she came right up to explore it, after about 2 minutes I was able to scoop her up. This was the easiest I ever had in catching anything. Unfortunetly, I'm going to sell her. Before I tried to catch her, I was watching my tank and all she was doing was going from coral to coral and nipping. She was actually taking small chunks out of some of them too. I even put a rubber band with some nori around a piece of LR rubble and she would nip at it, then go for the corals and come back.

She has an awesome personality. She'll come right over to you, doesn't bother any other fish, including my Flame Angel. Even though not the most colorful, they are a beautiful fish. I was really hoping she was only nippin a little, but when I watch from a distance it was crazy. If I left her in, I probably wouldn't have any corals in a month or so. I'm sure everything will recover now. Here is a crappy photo of her in QT.

Just figuered I'd post an update.

 

[Zebodog]

1. What type of Dwarf Angel do you have, how big was he/she when you got them and where (if you know) did they come from?

Flame Angel - not sure on the specific range where it was collected. About 2"

2. Does your Dwarf Angel pick at any corals/clams? If so, how much and which types (please provide detail like type of coral/clam and color)?

Yes. Acan's and Monti's were a favourite meal. Digitata was the first, followed closely by the acan and then started hammering the monti cap's.

3. How big is your tank and how much LR do you have in it (any algae growth in tank)?

65 gallon with ~80 lbs rock

4. What other fish do you have in your tank? This might indirectly tell us whether there is a competitor for the same food source (algae) which leads the angel to pick at corals.

2 true percs, 1 bangaii, 1 purple firefish, 1 lawnmower blenny, 1 watchman goby and adornatus wrasse, 1 coral banded shrimp, 2 perppermints and assorted snails/hermits.

5. How many times do you feed per day and what do you feed?

nori (didn't touch it), 1 X Mysis daily, 1 X NLS 1mm pellets daily, 1 X cyclopeeze every 2nd day. Oyster Feast every 3 days

6. Did you quarantine the fish before putting them in the DT?

LFS did for me.

7. Finally, how long have you had the fish, and how long have they been good/bad residents of the tank?

Had the fish for 2 weeks, first week was fine, second week started to eat corals, third week captured and back to LFS

 

[gofor100]

Sorry to hear about the continued trouble falconut...

Zebodog: so do you actually feed 2-3 times per day, or do you feed the angel one time per day, but with a mixture of the above mentioned foods? Also, was there any algae growth at all in the tank?

Thanks again everyone for the feedback and updates...

 

[saix88]

1. Potter's Angel and was about an inch and a half upon purchase.

2. I have mainly sps ranging from deepwater to hairy millis, pipe organ, and some xenia. I also have a test acan in the tank to see if he will eat it, it's been about 3 weeks in the tank and he doesn't touch it. I don't plan on doing LPS but wanted to see if he would go for it.

3. 90g tank with about 150lbs of live rock and plan on adding more later. He picks and swims between the rocks all day.

4. Other fish in the tank are a midas blenny, 2 banggai cardinals, pylei wrasse, mccosker's flasher wrasse, yellow coris wrasse, mandarin, blue spotted jawfish. Also there are emerald crabs, peppermint shrimp, various snails, cleaner shrimp, and a thorny oyster.

5. I feed NLS flakes 3 times a day and PE mysis once a day.

6. No I didn't.

7. I've had the potter's for about 3 months. He is a model citizen and lets the other fish know it's his tank and then gets along with them.

I've been really busy lately and I've noticed every time I'm not able to feed my tank a few times through the day there are patches on certain sps corals, especially my birds of paradise. When I'm able to feed I notice nothing is getting picked at and then when I slip it happens again.