Deep Sand Bed -- Anatomy & Terminology

[hotshot619]

I hope I am not asking a really stupid question but here it goes. I just broke down my 90 Bow FW tank and it had 68 or so pounds of Ultra Reef Marine which I have used in my Flu-val edge reef tank with no problems. I saved the sand and drained the water from the bucket. Can I use the sand from my former FW tank to start a new tank. It is very fine sand and I'll probably mix in like 10lbs of live sand from either a bag at the store or from someones established tank. (then LR and cycle like normal)
Thank

 

[shrimphead]

got a question here for TMZ, been reading through quite a bit of this thread, so do you recommend a deep sand bed in a display tank or not and whats your reasons?

 

[mikezalewski]

Dsb

Dsb

In my first tank I did the DSB and really did not like it I used 2 different types of the crushed corals (one a fine and the other a course) the finer was on top but was something like 4" deep. I hated it!! I love the sand look and not a deep bed on top of that so I have really not found many reasons to do this! I have worked in stores and again not found any real reason due to the equipment advancements. Now it is personal preference!

 

[EdKruzel]

I have worked in stores and again not found any real reason due to the equipment advancements.

There isn't any equipment that can do what a DSB provides. Denitrators do help to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas, however it would take a huge unit to replace a 4'' bed and not many hobbyists wish to add something that won't easily hide under the tank. Next we all know that bacteria clings to substrate surface area and nothing beats the surface area of a fine grain sand. Last and certainly not least is why I run a DSB; the natural effect. For a DSB to operate properly it must contain uncountable amounts of fauna being worms, pods and other little creatures. All corals benefit from the fauna especially from fauna spawning as a continuous food source, but it really benefits SPS, Gorgonians, Dendrophyllia sp. Tunicates, Sponges and the hard to keep Dendronephthya sp. Please tell me what equipment can come close to that. I've worked in stores, I've ran my own store and know hundreds of store employees around the nation Canada and Mexico; one thing they all have in common is that they learn to identify most everything in the hobby, but on average and because of high turnover it doesn't teach the employee how to keep life or the best way to keep life for extended periods. Again, a DSB is not a necessity, IF run properly it is a great benefit.

Now it is personal preference!

It's a useful way to aid to a system, not a necessity. It's always been a hobbyists matter of preference.

 

[Paul B]

Please tell me what equipment can come close to that.

RUGF.....Hi Ed :beer:

 

[EdKruzel]

I was waiting for you to chime in Paul, good to hear from you again. I'm not so sure that your 40yr old RUGF can handle the nitrates as well as a DSB, but I'd love to hear your opinion on the subject. It's certainly hard to dispute experience of that age...

 

[Paul B]

Ed, my nitrates stay about 5 and I change about 20% of the water 4 or 5 times a year.
I don't have problems with DSBs except I feel they last about ten years and all of my fish live longer than that. There are not to many old DSBs around to test.
Just my opinion.

 

[EdKruzel]

Paul,
I don't think I've had one for more than 7yrs due to frequent moves through my career, but I don't think if run properly that it would have a shelf life. Unfortunately running one properly is certainly a challenge. The most ideal situation is to have a RDSB of near the tank size or larger. There are so many fish and inverts that are a DSB no-no that having a remote bed solves all concerns.

If I stay in this area past this year I'll probably be here until I retire (10yrs out). If so, my plumbing and filtration will be in the basement with the tank being above in my office. Guarantee I'll have a RDSB with twice the volume of the tank and a pair of Leopard Wrasse and some gobies in the display.

I haven't seen your tank for a while, post some pics... :bounce3:

 

[biecacka]

paul what is a RUGF??
so here is my question to anyone, i have a 220 BB tank. softy and lps. ive been tinkering with the idea of a RDSB in my sump. my sump is 2 heavy duty rubbermaid totes connected to one another, each one with a bottom size about 24x19, i have thought about putting a larger tupperware of sort about 20x16x6 in there and filling it with sand and using it as a RDSB would this work or is that not near enough surface area for my tanks footprint?
72x24x30tall
thanks
corey

 

[Paul B]

but I don't think if run properly that it would have a shelf life.

Nope, ten years exactly, a day after 10 years and they crash. OK maybe not. But it seems that all of them that can last, do not last longer than that. You can't maintain them or really renew them, eventually (in my mind) all of the spaces betwene the sand will become compacted and there will be no porosity at all. It will fill with dead bacteria and any other thing that is carried in there by those creatures that will also die and contribute to clogging. Pod shells also last for a long time and contribute to clogging. Those creatures that are in there at the beginning do not live long or reproduce forever. I also feel that as it ages and more of it near the lower portions clog and become completely devoid of oxygen, no creature that has any capacity to move sand can go down there to allow any water flow at all. If you drill a hole in a tank with a very old DSB, I don't think any water will leak out, (but don't try that)
IMO, If it can not be maintained, it can not last.
If 10 years is long enough for you, then it should be fine but almost all of my fish are older than that.

paul what is a RUGF??

That is a reverse under gravel filter, in my case run very slow.
I can't answer your question about the RDSB

I haven't seen your tank for a while, post some pics...

Ed it is running well. I addded 4 SPS this year and I am surprised that they are growing so fast. I like LPS better but the SPS add some interest and I was curious if they would live. A couple of them have been in there for a couple of years and almost doubled in size.

 

[biecacka]

paul how does a RUGF work as opposed to a normal UGF?
anyone else have any input on if my sump footprint will be worth the effort to try a RDSB?

also what if you had your RDSB in tupperware containers so to speak, then could you just remove the container in X amount of yrs and replace them with new containers and new sand?
corey

 

[Paul B]

how does a RUGF work as opposed to a normal UGF?

In a regular UGF the water (along with any detritus) diffuses into the gravel and then goes up the "uplift" tubes where it goes back into the tank.
The problem with that is that the gravel acts as a filter removing the detritus along the way. It then eventually clogs the gravel and after a while, crashes the tank. Thats why no one uses them in saltwater but we all did. (When I say we, I mean anyone who had a salt tank in the 60s or 70s) I did also and they were advocated to run that way. There was no other way to run a salt or even a fresh water tank.
After doing that for a number of years and having huge problems I discovered that if you run it backwards by first filtering the water to remove detritus, then pumping the clean water very slow down the tubes, the system will last at least 40 years. :lol2:
There is some maintenance involved but very little. Nothing will work forever without maintenance. :worried2:

 

[biecacka]

so you clean the water then push it back down the tubes and up through the sand??

 

[LouZ]

Questions....

1. Are you using coarse sand or gravel ?
2. Is this you standard UFG you get from petco? I'm assuming not ......details...
3. what kind of pump are you using to force the water through the media ?
4 Would you do this for a DSB?

Lou

In a regular UGF the water (along with any detritus) diffuses into the gravel and then goes up the "uplift" tubes where it goes back into the tank.
The problem with that is that the gravel acts as a filter removing the detritus along the way. It then eventually clogs the gravel and after a while, crashes the tank. Thats why no one uses them in saltwater but we all did. (When I say we, I mean anyone who had a salt tank in the 60s or 70s) I did also and they were advocated to run that way. There was no other way to run a salt or even a fresh water tank.
After doing that for a number of years and having huge problems I discovered that if you run it backwards by first filtering the water to remove detritus, then pumping the clean water very slow down the tubes, the system will last at least 40 years. :lol2:
There is some maintenance involved but very little. Nothing will work forever without maintenance. :worried2:

 

[Paul B]

so you clean the water then push it back down the tubes and up through the sand??

Yes

Are you using coarse sand or gravel ?

gravel

Is this you standard UFG you get from petco?

Yes, except I got mine before Petco was in business

what kind of pump are you using to force the water through the media ?

An old submersible powerhead

Would you do this for a DSB?

No, it would not work for a DSB

 

[biecacka]

you just have a sponge attached to the powerhead?

 

[EdKruzel]

Paul,
Looking good, I still love the encrusted bottles. I think you may still get a deposit back if you turn them in. :lolspin:

My oldest DSB (again I believe about 7yrs) was in excellent condition when dismantled. I've also had others, far younger systems where I tempted fate and got a little cocky. Adding a wrasse or goby thinking I could maintain the system I quickly had algae problems or other incidents only to find my DSB was a block of concrete.

Biecacka,
The dimensions are too small to be dependable as the primary or only method of filtration, however it will be a great accessory and definitely add many needed little creatures back in to the main tank. And yes, in a RDSB, if there are any issues, simply close a valve, change the sand and charge on...

 

[Paul B]

you just have a sponge attached to the powerhead?

Yes, thats it.

Adding a wrasse or goby thinking I could maintain the system I quickly had algae problems or other incidents only to find my DSB was a block of concrete.

A Manta Ray would have been a better choice as they stay off the substrait.

I feel that all DSBs will turn into concrete if left close to 10 years. I have socks older than that so I need something that lasts longer.
I can have a herd of mooses walk through my tank and the RUGF will keep working fine.
But the wet hoof prints on the carpet may get my wife all perturbed.

 

[EdKruzel]

But the wet hoof prints on the carpet may get my wife all perturbed.

For those of you out there that don't speak Long Islandeese, translation is, Paul's wife will whoop his @ss...:dance:

 

[cloak]

Nothing against PaulB, (I've shook his hand before) but a RUGF is nothing new. There's a switch on my Aquaclear powerheads that can reverse the flow. IMO, there are way too many hobbyists on this site that can create a happy healthy reef tank using your basic UGF alone. It might not be the most efficient, but it can work. Give a DSB a go...