Demos for August meeting
- Thread starter phljess
- Start date
Brock Fluharty
New member
As in fish food? Like homemade recipes? I'd be interested in that.
firefish2020
New member
Though good ideas, these have been done and re-done, we need something different guys, think what would you like to see? Something beneficial to the hobby, something everyone could gain from? A demo a lecture a Q&A on a specific theme.
coralreefer
No Pistons
I like the differences in lighting Phil. Tank drilling too since there seems to be a lot of interest in this. I think Igotsalt has bits now or I can probably borrow Jim's.
What about Ron's suggestion about making "GARF" grunge?
Or a sand swap like Matt did a couple years ago? Great way to diversify the life in your sand bed if you have one lol.
Somebody was asking something about basic water parameters and testing before too I think.
cyanide vs. net caught.
Sustainable harvesting. ie. Banggai cardinals may be restricted under apendix II of CITES due to over collection.
tank bred vs. captive raised vs. wild caught.
*Gulp* SSB/DSB/BB pros/cons how they all work.
What about Ron's suggestion about making "GARF" grunge?
Or a sand swap like Matt did a couple years ago? Great way to diversify the life in your sand bed if you have one lol.
Somebody was asking something about basic water parameters and testing before too I think.
Lecture/Q&A on
cyanide vs. net caught.
Sustainable harvesting. ie. Banggai cardinals may be restricted under apendix II of CITES due to over collection.
tank bred vs. captive raised vs. wild caught.
*Gulp* SSB/DSB/BB pros/cons how they all work.
GARF Grunge/Sand swap
GARF Grunge/Sand swap
My 2 cents.
Treat your live sand as well as you do when shipping live fish.
I've used GARF Grunge. The Temp was very low on arrival date and the Grunge hatched Ich into my tank. Not good and certainly not worth that trouble for a pound of sand rubble.
I do think it is a great idea. I'd just want people to be aware of temp issues with sand. I certainly had no idea this could happen but after it did it made perfect sense.
GARF Grunge/Sand swap
My 2 cents.
Treat your live sand as well as you do when shipping live fish.
I've used GARF Grunge. The Temp was very low on arrival date and the Grunge hatched Ich into my tank. Not good and certainly not worth that trouble for a pound of sand rubble.
I do think it is a great idea. I'd just want people to be aware of temp issues with sand. I certainly had no idea this could happen but after it did it made perfect sense.
coralreefer
No Pistons
Re: GARF Grunge/Sand swap
Re: GARF Grunge/Sand swap
If you experienced ich after adding grunge it was because the ich tomonts were in the grunge to begin with. Temperature low or high will not cause an ich outbreak if the parasite is not present to begin with. Hate to think a company would ship a potentially infected product
Re: GARF Grunge/Sand swap
My 2 cents.
If you experienced ich after adding grunge it was because the ich tomonts were in the grunge to begin with. Temperature low or high will not cause an ich outbreak if the parasite is not present to begin with. Hate to think a company would ship a potentially infected product
Wasn't sure if you remembered or not.
firefish2020
New member
I hope this helps.
Everyone remember how I said the internet can be a good source of information but also a bad one when we listen to "so called experts" who only quote what they see rather than what they know. Which always leads to a new hobbyists being confused, so I'm going to try to help you here before we loose you to those "experts" :thumbsup:
Myth: There are many factors that can cause an ich outbreak temperature alone has little to do with it.
First of all ich is not caused, it just is. An outbreak is the proliferation of a pre-existing parasite that has been given ample conditions to spread and when they spread they spread fast. Ich though normally present in SW lies dormant until conditions are met that allow it to grow. So in a way yes ich can seem to just come out of seemingly nowhere.
"Cryptocaryon is a parasite, and like most parasites it is very prevalent in the environment of the species it normally infects. Therefore, most fish are exposed to low levels of this parasite fairly frequently and are able to effectively fight off the infection without becoming seriously ill. In an existing tank in which the fish are healthy, the introduction of a new fish or a decrease in water quality or temperature fluctuations may stress the fish to the point that the Cryptocaryon protozoans that were present but not creating problems will then rapidly cause a more serious infection. "
In other words, Ich Cryptocaryon is present in all SW environments to the extent that the flu virus is present to some degree in the air we breath daily. If you are healthy you have little to worry about. With ich though there are some basic precautions.
Be careful where you get your fish from, if there is a high level of stress during shipping it is likely that less hardy species can contract ich. If the LFS says they would like to hold the fish for a while let them don't buy fish strait from the shipping box. I have seen this happen and I always warn customers to just wait. It has little to do with the ich and more to do with the fish that may contract the disease and spread it rapidly to plague proportions, if the fish is healthy to start with, it just won't contract ich or if it does it will get over it very fast.
So what have we learned? There is no magic temperature that causes ich outbreaks so that's a myth, it is the result of an imbalance in the systems and biotope. Temperature swings up and down repeatedly CAN trigger an outbreak so can salinity swings, and dirty tank conditions, no hiding places, no water flow anything that induces stress in the animals can trigger an outbreak. In the cases where we see someone return one of our fish after an alleged outbreak in there tank I can always track it to 3 causes 4 if it's a tang.
#1 The tank is not cycled enough (about 6 months before you can be 100% sure IMO)
#2 They bought fish that were in rough transit.
#3 They added a fish from another LFS that may have had a higher Cryptocaryon exposure rate.
#4 Not feeding properly.
So as for the sand contaminant that's why when we do sand swaps we need to be careful as some sand can theoretically have a much higher cysts count especially if it had recent outbreak. Again it's the health of your fish that matter not really the sand so don't participate in a sand swap unless you are 100% certain you are cycled out 6 months or more and you are not adding a highly stressed fish (example, tangs) to your system afterwards.
Everyone remember how I said the internet can be a good source of information but also a bad one when we listen to "so called experts" who only quote what they see rather than what they know. Which always leads to a new hobbyists being confused, so I'm going to try to help you here before we loose you to those "experts" :thumbsup:
Myth: There are many factors that can cause an ich outbreak temperature alone has little to do with it.
First of all ich is not caused, it just is. An outbreak is the proliferation of a pre-existing parasite that has been given ample conditions to spread and when they spread they spread fast. Ich though normally present in SW lies dormant until conditions are met that allow it to grow. So in a way yes ich can seem to just come out of seemingly nowhere.
"Cryptocaryon is a parasite, and like most parasites it is very prevalent in the environment of the species it normally infects. Therefore, most fish are exposed to low levels of this parasite fairly frequently and are able to effectively fight off the infection without becoming seriously ill. In an existing tank in which the fish are healthy, the introduction of a new fish or a decrease in water quality or temperature fluctuations may stress the fish to the point that the Cryptocaryon protozoans that were present but not creating problems will then rapidly cause a more serious infection. "
In other words, Ich Cryptocaryon is present in all SW environments to the extent that the flu virus is present to some degree in the air we breath daily. If you are healthy you have little to worry about. With ich though there are some basic precautions.
Be careful where you get your fish from, if there is a high level of stress during shipping it is likely that less hardy species can contract ich. If the LFS says they would like to hold the fish for a while let them don't buy fish strait from the shipping box. I have seen this happen and I always warn customers to just wait. It has little to do with the ich and more to do with the fish that may contract the disease and spread it rapidly to plague proportions, if the fish is healthy to start with, it just won't contract ich or if it does it will get over it very fast.
So what have we learned? There is no magic temperature that causes ich outbreaks so that's a myth, it is the result of an imbalance in the systems and biotope. Temperature swings up and down repeatedly CAN trigger an outbreak so can salinity swings, and dirty tank conditions, no hiding places, no water flow anything that induces stress in the animals can trigger an outbreak. In the cases where we see someone return one of our fish after an alleged outbreak in there tank I can always track it to 3 causes 4 if it's a tang.
#1 The tank is not cycled enough (about 6 months before you can be 100% sure IMO)
#2 They bought fish that were in rough transit.
#3 They added a fish from another LFS that may have had a higher Cryptocaryon exposure rate.
#4 Not feeding properly.
So as for the sand contaminant that's why when we do sand swaps we need to be careful as some sand can theoretically have a much higher cysts count especially if it had recent outbreak. Again it's the health of your fish that matter not really the sand so don't participate in a sand swap unless you are 100% certain you are cycled out 6 months or more and you are not adding a highly stressed fish (example, tangs) to your system afterwards.
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phljess
New member
Yes, I think it is always present in some form. I do not know if it can be completely killed off by UV sterilizers. I do not know if a drop in temp would cause a breakout but I guess it could. Maybe this would be a good topic to discuss at the next meeting. I used to have some information on the life cycle of cryptos but do not remember where I have put it.
NO COLD SAND
After 6 paragraphs I read to be careful when swapping live sand but read no methods for doing so. All I said was to be careful with your temp when tranporting live sand. I did read that temp is a contributing factor. What else are you going to do with live sand to be careful and why was my advice wrong?
I challenge anyone who thinks there tank is so pure to drop your temp down to below 68 and see what happens. You can always say it was caused by a combination of factors. Temp still kicked it off.
Lots of wind in that sail.
After 6 paragraphs I read to be careful when swapping live sand but read no methods for doing so. All I said was to be careful with your temp when tranporting live sand. I did read that temp is a contributing factor. What else are you going to do with live sand to be careful and why was my advice wrong?
I challenge anyone who thinks there tank is so pure to drop your temp down to below 68 and see what happens. You can always say it was caused by a combination of factors. Temp still kicked it off.
Lots of wind in that sail.
phljess
New member
Ok, I want to get this thread back on track. Here is what I think may work for next meet.
1. Test Kits/ Chemistry crap- Phil
2. Lighting discussion, need a couple different fixtures, I can bring a halide and NO fluorescent. I need someone to bring a PC, VHO, and T5 if available. Piper maybe you could show us your LEDS. I think this would be a great discussion and would show people how each light differs.
3. If someone wants to make grunge thats fine.
4. A discussion about QT tanks/ hospital tanks
5. A discussion about parasites and pests, maybe we can put 4 and 5 together.
All right need some volunteers.....
Ron thank you for deciding to discuss #4 and #5. Ron, dont forget to bring pictures or illustrations of the various coral and fish pests. All others are still open for volunteers.
1. Test Kits/ Chemistry crap- Phil
2. Lighting discussion, need a couple different fixtures, I can bring a halide and NO fluorescent. I need someone to bring a PC, VHO, and T5 if available. Piper maybe you could show us your LEDS. I think this would be a great discussion and would show people how each light differs.
3. If someone wants to make grunge thats fine.
4. A discussion about QT tanks/ hospital tanks
5. A discussion about parasites and pests, maybe we can put 4 and 5 together.
All right need some volunteers.....
Ron thank you for deciding to discuss #4 and #5. Ron, dont forget to bring pictures or illustrations of the various coral and fish pests. All others are still open for volunteers.
coralreefer
No Pistons
Phil I'm not trying to get back off topic but since someone might do the grunge or a sand swap sometime I'd like to answer a question.
"Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite, meaning that it cannot complete its life cycle (at the trophont stage) without a host fish. Taking into account that the normal time frame in which tomonts will hatch ranges from 3 to 28 days, a fallow (without fish) period of 30 days to 6 weeks is recommended to eliminate this parasite from an aquarium." from part 1 of TerryB's series on ich.
if anybody's interested he talks about the life cycle in part 2.
The little research I read agree temp is a contributing factor but they indicated lower temps slow the hatching and higher temps speed it up. So who knows.
Back to the demos
Sounds good Phil
quarantine your sand for 4-6 weeks. Ich is obligate parasite and can't live without a host (fish).
"Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite, meaning that it cannot complete its life cycle (at the trophont stage) without a host fish. Taking into account that the normal time frame in which tomonts will hatch ranges from 3 to 28 days, a fallow (without fish) period of 30 days to 6 weeks is recommended to eliminate this parasite from an aquarium." from part 1 of TerryB's series on ich.
if anybody's interested he talks about the life cycle in part 2.
I'd be interested in a link.
The little research I read agree temp is a contributing factor but they indicated lower temps slow the hatching and higher temps speed it up. So who knows.
Back to the demos
Sounds good Phil