Dendro's legal?
- Thread starter MorandiWine
- Start date
JenDub
In Memoriam
Considering they are only collected in areas that cannot legally import coral to the US (non-cities member nations) it is irrelevant...the permits would just facilitate cities washing of corals collected in other countries and shipped out of indo (which is basically what is happening now only the corals come in with cities permits for other species)
goofyreefer
Member
So if I understand you correctly your saying that when the rhizo's do come in they will be brought in under a different species... correct? I asked that very question since he( LFS owner) admitted that corals are brought in under different names illegally. His response was that no these would be brought in under their own permits. I simply said/asked "legally" and he said yes.
I tried doing a search on the net for the "cities"but couldn't find anything. Anyone have a link to something?
roblack
Active member
Wow, this thread has been very enlightening. I won't buy a rhizo unless they become legal. Corals only die when ill or not properly cared for, so buying them to save them makes little sense IMO. That would mean we should all buy all the illegal animals we can to save them. Buying illegal goods supports the illegal trade itself. If people stopped buying them, there would be no need for the Feds to move in. We would have policed ourselves. Thankfully my dendros are definitely Aussie.
MorandiWine
Premium Member
And as far as I know CITEs permits are different from country to country as well as the quotes for those species. CITEs is governed by the exorting country and only need to pass Fish and Wildlife here, who double check the permits. If they find something wrong or illegal you will be charged under the Lacey Act that enforces the laws (including CITEs) from other countries. The real unfortunate part of this is that the exporting country generally does not get fined, it is the importer that does. So realistically the shipper can send whatever they want and the guy getting the shipment gets in trouble. As far as I know it.
The problem is that the system is flawed (as is with most gov.). There are not enough enforcement/insection officers and the international community does not seem to be on the same page with regulations and the like. It seems that money will always be the key player with all of this. For example I saw a list last week from the Flores Islands with Dendro's plainly listed. Perhaps CITEs needs to have a larger enforcement division and start cracking down on crooked exporters?
tyler
The problem is that the system is flawed (as is with most gov.). There are not enough enforcement/insection officers and the international community does not seem to be on the same page with regulations and the like. It seems that money will always be the key player with all of this. For example I saw a list last week from the Flores Islands with Dendro's plainly listed. Perhaps CITEs needs to have a larger enforcement division and start cracking down on crooked exporters?
tyler
organism
code monkey
uuuummmmmmmmmm... nope. CITES are all species specific.
Another main problem with fish and wildlife is that they really don't know anything about corals, so they mis'id stuff all the time which is what allows corals to illegally be brought in under other names. A wholesaler just had an argument with fish and wildlife over some slipper corals that they said were something else, as if those were hard to id by any means, they ended up confiscating them
CITES has zero in form of enforcement as that is not what they are about. Both import and export country's are the ones to enforce the permits. problem at least here in the US is US F & W s has to deal with ALL incoming wildlife, just just corals.
In a perfect world the importer would pay an inspection fee and that fee would pay the salary of the inspector, who would be well versed in ID'ing coral onsight (what a task). If a problem was found, the exporter would be the one in trouble unless the importer was proven to be involved. I know, wild pipe dream, but hey, I can dream
The question was posed earlier about how to read up on CITES?
The internet will help you there. CITES - Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora
http://www.cites.org/
ONe just needs to look at one of the quota pages for a single country to see corals are broken to to genus and species and "Scleractinia.sp" only applies to live rock.
Here is an old article by Eric B. on where coral comes from. Notice the CITES quotas listed are genus/species. Since then US F & W S has asked for it to be down to species. The country of import can make what ever law they want in this respect. Sure that country could be brought in front of the WTO for it, but I doubt the WTO would do anything to them for such an enforcement.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2002/feature.htm
For Indo in 2005 the CITES quota list looked like below. Notice genus and species listed although some species also have a blanket genus category for those that can not be ID'ed on sight.
JenDub
In Memoriam
The system has many flaws but they are unlikely to change (for the better!), unlike businesses that have to be reactive to the market the government has no incentive to change.
In many cases the gov has incentive not to change because it would mean learning new regulations, retraining employees and creating new forms all of which cost time & money
ID'ing corals is tricky when you are an industry insider so imagine what it must be like for a FDA/USDA (I forget which one) employee who pulls fish & game duty! Luckily the agents do their best to identify the shady shippers and throughtly inspect thier shipments, unfortunately it is an uphill battle and smugglers/poachers have the profit motive to reward their efforts
Let's not even talk about the people crossing the Canadian border to smuggle illegally imported corals (smuggled into Canada) into the US, that is another thread!
In many cases the gov has incentive not to change because it would mean learning new regulations, retraining employees and creating new forms all of which cost time & money
ID'ing corals is tricky when you are an industry insider so imagine what it must be like for a FDA/USDA (I forget which one) employee who pulls fish & game duty! Luckily the agents do their best to identify the shady shippers and throughtly inspect thier shipments, unfortunately it is an uphill battle and smugglers/poachers have the profit motive to reward their efforts
Let's not even talk about the people crossing the Canadian border to smuggle illegally imported corals (smuggled into Canada) into the US, that is another thread!
goofyreefer
Member
Rhizo's appear to be listed on the CITIES appendix II.
http://www.unep-wcmc.org/isdb/CITES...rce=animals&displaylanguage=eng&tabname=legal
Taken from CITIES website.
"Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look-alike species", i.e. species of which the specimens in trade look like those of species listed for conservation reasons (see Article II, paragraph 2 of the Convention). International trade in specimens of Appendix-II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild. (See Article IV of the Convention)"
Am I not looking at this correctly?
http://www.unep-wcmc.org/isdb/CITES...rce=animals&displaylanguage=eng&tabname=legal
Taken from CITIES website.
"Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look-alike species", i.e. species of which the specimens in trade look like those of species listed for conservation reasons (see Article II, paragraph 2 of the Convention). International trade in specimens of Appendix-II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild. (See Article IV of the Convention)"
Am I not looking at this correctly?
wayne in norway
New member
Not quite. Rhizo's are indeed listed as controlled by CITES, but if you search the export quotas you won't find them. Thus none can be legally traded this year - unless you could demonstrate they were captive fragged from legally obtained stock. Some Dendro's are in the export quotas.
See this guy...
http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2009/ExportQuotas2009.pdf
Note that these are on a year long basis so the notion of a short time permit to collect seems like nonsense to me.
See this guy...
http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2009/ExportQuotas2009.pdf
Note that these are on a year long basis so the notion of a short time permit to collect seems like nonsense to me.
returnofsid
New member
Rhizos are not illegal to buy. It is illegal to collect them, import them, export them....etc. HOWEVER, if I have a legally obtained Rhizo, growing in my tank, it is legal for me to frag and sell it. That being said, I really don't see the fascination with Rhizos. I think they're boring, bordering on ugly...lol. BUT, that's just my opinion.
SoLiD
-=Snake=-
I know this is an old thread, but a friend of mine just brought this up in a discussion. I did a Google search and this is what I found. He stated Dendro Fistula are illegal to collect. From what I read here, it seems to be true. Does this still hold true today in 2013? Any input would greatly be appreciated.
