DHA?

[Angel*Fish]

Since you guys raise small sized live foods I thought this might be the place to ask...

I have a couple of fish that pretty much only eat just hatched artemia nauplii. But according to Joyce Wilkerson the BBS lack DHA. I've been therefore growing the nauplii out for a couple of days & gut loading them with a fat supplement containing DHA.

My question: Are rotifers or any of the other small critters that can be hatched considered a "complete" food? I don't know what my fish live on in the wild, but I'm pretty sure it's not gut loaded BBS. I don't mind doing it, but I'm afraid it's not enough nutrition.

 

[hmott]

have you looked into newly born sw shrimp, I believe with a decent setup they product every few days? You can also bread mysis shrimp and they are about the same size as adult brine but full of nutrients not just water. And yes rotifers are much more nutrient rich, but smaller.

 

[NicoleC]

Just gut-load the artemia with an enrichment product -- you'll need to wait until they start eating to do it. Rotifers are less nutritious than BBS, and will need even more enrichment. Either way will get you there. In the case of BBS, though, you can gutload with pulverized flake and other suppliments which may be easier for you.

Copepodss or mysis are more nutritious, but much more trouble to culture and are still only as good as their diet.

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6999663#post6999663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NicoleC
-- you'll need to wait until they start eating to do it.

I've been waiting 24 hours after they hatch to load them... but I don't know if they are eating at this point???? Do you know when they start eating?

Also, how long I should wait after adding the enrichment product before I assume they are loaded & ready to feed to my fish? I know with adult brine - they say 4-5 hours, but these guys are so little... I've been adding a teaspoon of Kent Zoecon to 1 liter, BTW.

 

[NicoleC]

My bottle of enrichment media says to keep them in the enrichment solution for 24 hours. I'm not familiar with the product you mentioned but it sounds like a selco-based product and sould be similar. I think many folks do 12 hours, though, for ease of use,

BBS start feeding at about 6 hours old.

Some info here from the fine folks at BSD:
http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/article_artemia_supplement.html

 

[FMarini]

Hey fellow Houstonian
Sure sounds like a Seco/selcon product would be up your alley, feed your nauplii approx 4-6 hr before you use them. Additionally constant feeding of yourt nauplii w/ live phytos (like DTs) will sufficently add DHA and EPA to your BBS.
AS for BBS nauplii, if you decap you might get a slightly better product in that the egg yolk would have some DHA/EPA, it all depends on what the parents where fed

You might start by reading here
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=135137

 

[Angel*Fish]

BBS start feeding at about 6 hours old.
Thanks so much, Nicole -I appreciate the help- And thanks for that link - I've been to their site but never noticed that useful page

Fellow Houstonian-
Thanks for replying here
I have been looking for Selco/Selcon in our town but haven't found any which is why I finally just bought the Kent product.

When you say the decap may be more nutritious, do you mean feeding without hatching? if so, I don't know that my finicky eaters will go for it.

- I've been using eggs from Brine Shrimp Direct & was going to order a can from them - I'll check their website & see if it says what they are fed. If you know a better brand, please let me know

If decapsulization is the way to go, I can go that way...I should at least try it. And thanks for your very informative links

Do you know if there is an optimal age to feed the loaded young brine?? As in when are their tummies large enough to hold a decent amount of food

And Frank - thanks for the tip about the phytoplankton - will do! And... are you saying that you think that as long as I keep these young brine loaded with good stuff, it will be a good enough diet for my fish?

 

[FMarini]

Marie-
quote
"are you saying that you think that as long as I keep these young brine loaded with good stuff, it will be a good enough diet for my fish?"-

Absolutely. read the article i linked to on artemia. Rots & artemia are nothing but transport mechanisms for nutrients. the better you feed the food items the better your fry will be.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Thank you ! I feel like I can exhale now. I told someone in another forum here on RC what I was doing & I was given the impression that if I didn't I didn't get these fish eating other foods they would die :hmm2:

Uh-oh... I just reread your post and when you say "the better your fry will be" do you mean baby fish? But it's still ok for the grownups too, right?

 

[Angel*Fish]

"read the article i linked to on artemia" I did & thanks for the thorough article

 

[G_melacara]

Well, I can guess where the person on the other thread was coming from. In general with the fish we keep it is a good idea to provide a nutritional AND diverse diet. Gut loading your artemia is a must if you want them to have nutritional value but there is a possibility that if thats what you are feeding exclusively the fish may be missing out on some essential nutrient/vitamin/mineral/something that is in another food. For example some angels require algae or some algae based food as part of their diet. All that said, I don't know how this applies to your fish but its a good idea to try more than one source of food with some fish when possible.

Chris

 

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7007152#post7007152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G_melacara
Well, I can guess where the person on the other thread was coming from. In general with the fish we keep it is a good idea to provide a nutritional AND diverse diet. Gut loading your artemia is a must if you want them to have nutritional value but there is a possibility that if thats what you are feeding exclusively the fish may be missing out on some essential nutrient/vitamin/mineral/something that is in another food. For example some angels require algae or some algae based food as part of their diet. All that said, I don't know how this applies to your fish but its a good idea to try more than one source of food with some fish when possible.

Chris

Thanks Chris
Believe me, I have tried every food I can think of. They are in with my other fish who do get a varied diet. One thing I haven't tried is shaving/grating frozen mysis - the last few days I've noticed that sometimes they eat a little of the teeny bits of mysis "crumbs". I'll try making a "crumbs only" meal and see how it turns out.

And yes, this person gave me excellent advice, except that he probably didn't know of any fish who'd been raised solely on gut loaded BBS. That's not a negative thing since I don't know if you could find anybody who has done this. I was really grateful for all the info & creative ideas he gave me. Anyway, that's why I'm here in this forum where I figured there might be more knowledge about this subject.

 

[NicoleC]

Marie, you might try using a regular feeding implement, like a pipette, tube, turkey baster, etc. It doesn't really matter what it is, as long as food will come out of it (or appear to come out of it).

IME, many fish will respond to the stimulus of a regular feeding implement, and once they associate it with feeding time, you can start to add in prepared foods mixed in with the live foods, and then progress to less and less live food. Because it comes out of the feeding tube, they will make the "it must be food" association that many wild fish have trouble will making when it comes to dead foods or just new shapes and textures of foods.

If the feeding implement doesn't work or it doesn't get associated with food for them very strongly, I would add garlic to the food or in the water at the same time. Any strong smell will work, but garlic is cheap and easy and also healthy. Once again, the goal is to get them to make the food association.

If these are anthias, their nutritional needs are not really understood but seem to be more complex and delicate than many other fish. Getting them to take a wide variety of prepared foods and eat them heartily should be a high priority. Still, you should definately keep taking steps your are to enrich the foods they will eat now.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Nicole - that is brilliant! Thank you very very much!

I do feed most frozen foods with the turkey baster & I have a Singapore angel that even tries to eat the baster!

I'll try your suggestion with the BBS & the anthias. And yes, you're right -- they are my 2 finicky anthias -- they do go after the BBS heartily, but nothing else. I've had them 3 mo. now - & they are gradually gaining energy & weight.

"their nutritional needs are not really understood but seem to be more complex and delicate than many other fish" That answers a question I hadn't asked but was wanting to know. I've noticed that all my anthias go nuts when the BBS drops in the tank.
They are such high energy fish I wonder if the higher fat from the nauplii (if that's right) is one of the things they need.

 

[NicoleC]

Maybe. Anthias really seem to be oriented toward live foods, though, so it may just be the trigger of the food moving and swimming.

I had some randall's anthias that ate ANYTHING and were very aggressive eaters at feeding time -- but still had a distinct enthusiastic response to live foods above and beyond the normal way live foods get fish to perk up.

 

[Angel*Fish]

There are so many factors, I guess...these fish don't respond to live adult brine, though. I've considered raising the brine to graduated sizes to slowly trick them into eating larger foods, but live brine isn't supposed to be very nutritious either. The adults do have larger stomachs though I also worry about their esophagus/stomachs having problems if they aren't made to eat larger foods.

You don't happen to know of a source where I might find stomach content analysis on tukas or anthias is general do you?

 

[NicoleC]

Anthias do eat small foods naturally -- just a lot of them, which is one of the reasons they are so hard to keep healthy in captivity. Adult brine just may be too bit to elicit a natural feeding response.

If you have lots of copepods and other tiny critters in your tank, they are eating more than you know They will decimate these little critters faster than mandarins!

You might try fishbase.org for any more info on your particular species. I'm guessing it will say "small crustaceans" -- most entries do.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Thanks for that link I'll see what I can find