Did I screw up? Sand bed...

[Myka]

I am setting up a 33g (unless I find a bigger tank before I get water in it! ). I've done the SW thing before a few years back, but not very well, so I've spent hundreds of hours researching everything in the past 2-3 years. This time around I'm trying to do it better.

So I went out and bought CaribSea "SeaFlor Special Reef Grade" Aragonite Sand 1-2 mm. I'm concerned about the grain size...I thought I got the right size, but I am hearing people say tiny, tiny grain sizes like 1/8mm or "sugar/salt grain size" (what is the mm of that anyway???) But, is the tiny grain size only needed for DSBs? Am I silly for not wanting a DSB? I'm scared of a crash... and I also want a couple clowns, so I don't want them churning it or causing a crash, or having sand blow around from the PHs. I just want to have a 0.5-1.5 inch deep sand bed - semi SSB...true SSB? I dunno...

I think I will not be able to have certain animals in my tank because of no DSB, but I'm not toally sure what they all are that NEED that DSB. Does anyone know of a list of animals/inverts that require a DSB?

I know one of the important factors of a DSB is nutrient export, right? I was thinking I would use a refugium or two (one with algaes, and one with mud, LR, etc to help with nutrient export (as well as pod production). Will I have Nitrate problems with no DSB? I've had nitrate problems in past tanks (like 80-160ppm) that I just couldn't get rid of, but I blame that hugely in part of having a crushed coral substrate as well as no sump or refugium...as well as running UGFs!!!! :eek2:

I also know that if you don't have the proper sand mix 40% 1/16mm, 30% 1/8mm, etc etc etc that the DSB won't even function properly anyway... I have never even seen sand that fine for sale.

Anyway....did I screw up by buying 1-2 mm? I only need 2 bags, both of which I bought. They did have one bag of the CaribSea "Reef Select" 0.5-1 mm sand there, and I could exchange one bag of the 1-2 mm for the one bag of 0.5-1 mm if suggested??? Or am I gonna be good with what I have?

Also, I forgot to mention I WILL NOT BE USING A SKIMMER...if that makes a difference. If I absolutely have to later on in the tank's life I will add one, but there's no plan for one at all as of yet.

This tank thing is stressful and I don't even have anything alive yet!!!

 

[JerseyReef]

Myka - All very good questions. I'll I won't answer all of them, as the DSB/Barebottom approach has been discussed at length.

This is what I do with every single tank I've set up with respects to DSB

Here's how I setup every single DSB.

I use the ESV oolitic and mix it with a bag of slightly larger sized Carbsea and some small CC.

Mixture as follows:

ESV 90% < 0.5mm
Small CC 3% >2mm
Carbsea 7% <1-2mm

I start the cycle with some shrimp and wait for three months before adding a critter kit. I buy one from Inland, IPSF and Greg Hiller (if available). I feed the DSB for 3 months with nothing but shrimp, fish and pellets. I then add some live sand from fellow reefers in the area or my own system to further infuse the system. After feeding the DSB for 3 months I then add my LR. I then wait another 2 months before any fish and inverts were added to the system.

Couple of points to make...

Dr. Ron has told me that this is the wrong grain size to use for a DSB. I sort of disagree, oolitic sand is spherical in shape. I believe this allows for better gas exchange between the deeper levels of the DSB, which for me averages around 5"- 6" in depth.

I also believe that proper time is required to allow the system to develop and mature. I believe that hobbyists rush the process and force the DSB to process more waste than is possible, thus allowing nutrients to build up and not get exported. I don't believe anyone would follow my setup, it takes 5 to 6 months.

Regarding nutrient export. It's prudent to have both (Macro and Skimmer). Although I'm not saying one can't be done without the other, it's not advisable. Going skimmer-less takes a very large of understanding of a closed system and experience, that can't gleamed from a book or a reef board.

Use the search function to look for DSB threads. This one is fairly decent and makes good use of the all the different methods out there. Mine is just one of many that work. You have to find the best fit that works for you and your system.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=745968&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

 

[dnjan]

The problem with 1-2mm sand is that detritus will settle between the particles, and you won't be able to remove it unless you siphon it regularly. Don't count on having enough water flow to prevent detritus from settling - there is always a "dead spot".
So, if you go with that sand, plan on vaccuming it regularly.

 

[TheFlyingTang]

You MUST use a good skimmer! That is unless you like mixing and changing massive amounts of water every week.

The savings in water, salt, time and energy will be made up in a very short time.

 

[Myka]

Thanks for all the great input!

JerseyReef: Great post! I have read a lot about DSBs, so I understand their basics. I'm just totally freaked out about having a crash, and just don't want to risk it. Am I really being stubborn or naive about it, and I should actually be putting a DSB in? I'm think that the DSB is pretty much "standard" now a days...?

dnjan: Yes, this is what my concern is! I thought I got a good one, but then I came across a few threads discussing much finer sand. Dang...I guess it goes back to the store. Will the 0.5-1mm be good, or should I order even finer stuff? I don't really know what I should be getting I suppose!

TheFlyingTang: I was under the impression that skimmerless is no big deal until it gets about 40% stocked with corals, fish, and inverts...???

 

[JerseyReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7180788#post7180788 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Myka
Thanks for all the great input!

JerseyReef: Great post! I have read a lot about DSBs, so I understand their basics. I'm just totally freaked out about having a crash, and just don't want to risk it. Am I really being stubborn or naive about it, and I should actually be putting a DSB in? I'm think that the DSB is pretty much "standard" now a days...?

Well, I wouldn't say DSB are standard now a days. There's a pretty sharp divide among the BB and DSB hobbyists. I guess DSB used to be the standard, I guess at their peak about 2-3 years ago. Most new BB are ex-DSB that either had a crash or feared one.

Problem was, most hobbyists rushed the process, didn't set the DSB up properly or had poor husbandry skills to boot. It's still closed system and while a DSB is an efficient nutrient removal system, you still need other means of nutrient export in any system. Especially if you have poor husbandry skills. Some use a combination of skimming and/or macro algae for this purpose.

One way to look at, both use different methods to achieve the same goal. Nutrient export in a closed system.

For BB

1. Very high flow in the main tank. This is used to ensure the detritus is suspended as much as possible and can make it's way to the sump/skimmer.
2. Requires regular vacuuming of the tank bottom to find settled detritus.
3. Most BB have a very large skimmer for the excess nutrients that are not processed in the main tank.
4. I don't know if most of them use a macro algae system as well.
5. Large amounts of cleanup crews to deal with the detritus produced by the tank. They produce their own detritus as well. This still has to be exported.
   [/list=1]
   
   For DSB
   1. The main tank is the main nutrient exporting component. Using fauna and micro fauna to breakdown the nutrients created in the tank. Some argue that waste remains in the DSB until it reaches critical levels. Proper maintenance and fauna populations will prevent this from occurring.
   2. Some vacuum the sand in DSB. It's not necessary, but I guess it doesn't hurt.
   3. Most DSB have a skimmer and/or macro algae exporting system. I don't know if the DSB guys are using the larger skimmers or not. Just a good one works fine. For me, I still use a modified Remora Pro w/MAG 7. The guys that go skimmerless, most have a macro algae exporting system.
   4. cleanup crews are still needed in a DSB, but nowhere near the levels the BB guys use
   5. Good flow is needed as well, but not to the levels the BB guys use.
      [/list=1]
      
      In the end it's a personal choice. For me, DSB works for me. I'm willing to setup a system using time and patience and have the added benefit of increased biodiversity in my system. It promotes a healthier system (with regards to a better food chain) for all inhabitants. A BB can not provide that, without adding it to the system from an external source. I'm not saying that DSB system is a complete food chain, it's a lot closer than a BB system.
      
      HTH

 

[rdmpe]

It seems to me that if you have a sand bed that shallow, you will have to keep it cleaned out by vacuming it or stirring it up enough for your other nutrient removal system to take care of the wastes. So you may want to keep it very shallow so that you can stir it around easily and effectively get the gunk out of it.

As for critters that need sand, there are coris wrasse that bury themselves at night. They may not be happy in your tank. Some snails and conchs also might like more sand than you are planning. I don't have any experience with other sand bed creatures than those...

 

[yeame]

do not vacume a DSB! if I get a dead spot i feed some pellet food so the cleaning crew will come out to stir the top of the sand just put something in there that stirs the sand like a goby or after it is set up for a wil some sand sifting cucumbers or pillow crabs
when u buy live rock make sure it comes off the bottom of the LR tank at your LFS

 

[omni2226]

Heres a link to a study about the diffrent sand bed types and how well they worked.

The beds range from very shallow coarse to deep fine and everything inbetween.

You will see that all the sand beds performed exactly the same.
The only major doffrence was that coarse grain (crushed coral) had higher levels of phosphates, though they arent realy sure why this is so.

So for all intents and purpose your sand is just as good as anybody elses sand.
Now deeper finer grades do perform a slightly better job at ridding nitrates and have a small advantage of more "life" for diversity.

Keep the sand you have now,add some playsand from lowes (siliica sand is fine,forget the "I have to have arag sand thing") and a little crushed coral speinkled on the top. This will give you a nice mix of substrate for all your animals.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

 

[omni2226]

After you add your sand, dont worry about "creatures" right away. When you add your live rocks many animals of all types will find their way into the sand.

After the cycle is over (several days to weeks ) add a few nassuris snails. They bury themselves in the sand and eat all the fish/animal poop.

Some peopel dont like crabs but scarlett hermit crabs do a decent job of eating poop and cyano bacteria/alga.

Be careful of adding any sea star type creatures as they will eat all the little bugs and worms in the sand and defeat the purpose of having a deep/medium sand bed to start with.

 

[Anemonebuff]

My sand bed varies in depth from 3"-5" deep. It is more like a MSB(Medium Sand Bed). I have many critters in the sand and I have a sea cuke to clean the top. A while back I had a fighting conch and it did a great job. Every once in a while a stir a section of the sand bed. Some bubbles come up and the detrius rises to the top and is taken away with the flow. It is okay IME to stir small areas of the bed. IMO it is beneficial.

Flow rates are important as well. I have about a turnover of about 40 times the tank volume. After the sand settles it no longer blows around.

As far as grain size goes, I have a mixture of oolitic(Southdown sand), Fiji Pink, and some white silica sand. Most of it is oolitic and the least is the silica.

A shallow sand bed will lower nitrates, but no where near as much as a DSB or MSB. I suggest you use the sand you have and maintain a bed of 1.5"-2" deep. I will also suggest you get a skimmer.

 

[Myka]

Thank you all SO much for your input. There's a TONNE of great info in this thread!

It sounds like I should just fork out the big bucks and do a DSB. Maybe my fears of a crash will subside...nah I doubt it! I want to get a few different animals that would much prefer (or even require) a DSB, so I guess I should just splurge.

On that note...where can I get cheap aragonite sand in BC???? *lol*

 

[jjirsa78]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7178125#post7178125 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheFlyingTang
You MUST use a good skimmer! That is unless you like mixing and changing massive amounts of water every week.

The savings in water, salt, time and energy will be made up in a very short time.

I fundamentally disagree with this, especially on small tanks.

I have a 24G nano that runs without skimmer, and without detectable nitrate/phosphate/nitrite/ammonia for 8+ weeks. I do water changes only for trace elements, not to remove biowaste.

You can run without a skimmer if you keep your load reasonable, and you have other means of exporting nutrients. For me, this involves Caulerpa and sea grass in the display. Many people may not like this approach, but it is very effective and much, much cheaper than a skimmer (for a small tank).

 

[Myka]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7191015#post7191015 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jjirsa78
You can run without a skimmer if you keep your load reasonable, and you have other means of exporting nutrients. For me, this involves Caulerpa and sea grass in the display. Many people may not like this approach, but it is very effective and much, much cheaper than a skimmer (for a small tank).

This is exactly my thinking on it...but I think we are the minority.

 

[omni2226]

55 Gallon tank with no skimmer going on 3 months. No detectable amon/trite/trate/phosphate.

4-6 deep sand bed made of 100 lbs of playsand (silica) and 25 lbs of crushed coral. 60 lbs of live rocks.

 

[omni2226]

Oh let me add Im lazy so water changes are about 8 gallons or so once a month.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7181321#post7181321 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JerseyReef


For BB

1. Very high flow in the main tank. This is used to ensure the detritus is suspended as much as possible and can make it's way to the sump/skimmer.
2. Requires regular vacuuming of the tank bottom to find settled detritus.
3. Most BB have a very large skimmer for the excess nutrients that are not processed in the main tank.
4. I don't know if most of them use a macro algae system as well.
5. Large amounts of cleanup crews to deal with the detritus produced by the tank. They produce their own detritus as well. This still has to be exported.
   [/list=1]
   
   For DSB
   1. The main tank is the main nutrient exporting component. Using fauna and micro fauna to breakdown the nutrients created in the tank. Some argue that waste remains in the DSB until it reaches critical levels. Proper maintenance and fauna populations will prevent this from occurring.
   2. Some vacuum the sand in DSB. It's not necessary, but I guess it doesn't hurt.
   3. Most DSB have a skimmer and/or macro algae exporting system. I don't know if the DSB guys are using the larger skimmers or not. Just a good one works fine. For me, I still use a modified Remora Pro w/MAG 7. The guys that go skimmerless, most have a macro algae exporting system.
   4. cleanup crews are still needed in a DSB, but nowhere near the levels the BB guys use
   5. Good flow is needed as well, but not to the levels the BB guys use.
      [/list=1]

1. 1. 
      
      This is a lot of the reason people have problems with DSBs right there. They beleive that theres really a difference.
      
      A DSB should have just as big a skimmer as a BB, it should have just as much cleanup crew. It should have as much flow as you can get into it. The reason people have waste building up is because they dont have these things.
      
      
      Having a DSB is not a free pass to not properly take care of your tank either. They arent a free pass to crappy equipment either.

 

[omni2226]

Never said it was a free pass to anything. I work in my or around my tank daily and test twice a week.
I remove any large dead things I may see and keep a very close eye on my livestock.

I dont have crappy equipment, and even if I did what buisness is it of anyone elses?

 

[omni2226]

That came off wrong, just wanted to say I take care of my animals.
I agree about some things with a sand bed. You need a good cleanup crew and flow rates are probally more important for sand beds than bare bottoms.
The water doesnt flow "through" the sand, it gets moved by the creatures living in it. Its important to make sure the water at the top inch or so of the sand has plenty of o2 and keeps the food chain moving.
I do think many people rely too heavily on skimmers and get lax on water changes and cleaning thinking the skimmer will fix it.

Water changes and cleaning are must do,s.
Having a big honking skimmer is NOT a must have.

 

[JerseyReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7192160#post7192160 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
A DSB should have just as big a skimmer as a BB, it should have just as much cleanup crew. It should have as much flow as you can get into it. The reason people have waste building up is because they dont have these things.


Having a DSB is not a free pass to not properly take care of your tank either. They arent a free pass to crappy equipment either.

Rich - I understand your concern. I never said that DSB are a free pass. However, a properly setup one is different than a incorrectly setup one, with regards to the DSB itself.

However, I don't agree with the following. This comes from my experience, so FWIW.

Cleanup levels that are quoted for the BB tanks are just too high for a DSB tank. The reason why BB use such high numbers, is to deal with the detritus in the system that can not be processed by the DSB. I've read some people quoting +200 cerith, +200 astera, +200 Mexican turbos for a 125 system! It's just unnecessary and irresponsible.

The high flow levels that are reached in BB are for one purpose only. Suspend the detritus as along as possible and hope it gets to the skimmer via the overflow. High high flow is needed in any system, not to the levels seen in the BB setups.

While the merits of a larger, bigger, better skimmer has it's place in any system. Nobody is advocating the use of Seaclone over a beckett or similar type of skimmer. Some of the skimmers on the market now cost over $4K. Is that cost justified? I'm just not sure that a $4K skimmer is worth the money. My modified Remora Pro works great and only cost me ~$200