Did you know that the main feature of the skimmer is not to lower nutrients?
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Paul B
Premium Member
Since skimmers arbitrarily alter microbiomes, in light of all the research showing disrupted microbiomes have chronic to acute effects on the ecosystems and organisms that rely on them they shouldn't be used to maintain aquatic ecosystems. What has been ignored is the role of sponges in maintaining marine ecosystems Over a decade before de Goiej conducted his ground breaking research Steve Tyree (perhaps the first "designer coral" farmer) was growing and selling corals using cryptic sponges instead of skimmers. For reef systems sponges have been shown not only to promote microbial processes beneficial to corals but also to deal with the hydrophilic DOC that causes pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes that can't be touched with skimmers. Sponges are also major players in the nutrient cycles in reef systems and essential for the development of more natural food webs. Sorry for teh data bomb but here's a bunch of links:
Steve Tyree's methodology is covered by Delbeek and Sprung in their books.
Feldman's research on TOC, skimmers and bacterial counts in Aquaria:
Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part I
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Ken and Kelly report on their work on Total Organic Carbon and how it relates to the reef aquarium.
reefs.com
Total Organic Carbon (TOC) and the Reef Aquarium: an Initial Survey, Part II
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Ken and Kelly continue to report on their work on Total Organic Carbon and how it relates to the reef aquarium.
reefs.com
Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 1
The Development of a Method for the Quantitative Evaluation of Protein Skimmer Performance
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Protein skimmers have become indispensable for many aquarists who strive to maintain the high water quality necessary to keep stony corals.
reefs.com
Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 2
Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Many factors contribute to the 'value' of a skimmer to an aquarist, including quality of construction, size, footprint, noise level, ease of cleaning, energy efficiency of the pump, and of course, the ability...
reefs.com
Elemental Analysis of Skimmate
Elemental Analysis of Skimmate: What Does a Protein Skimmer Actually Remove from Aquarium Water?
Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. The chemical/elemental composition of skimmate generated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises.
reefs.com
Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water
Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration
What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...
reefs.com
Sponge stuff
BActeria and Sponges
Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs
A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs
Coral reefs are economically important ecosystems that have suffered unprecedented losses of corals in the recent past. Why have Caribbean reefs in particu
academic.oup.com
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest
Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.
search.proquest.com
I'm quite certain you are not cognizant of the states of my id/ego/superego. But good use of misdirection in your aurgumentation.
And I've been keeping fish for 51 years and corals for 35 years and I've learned I need to understand how something works to maintain it properly.
Actually it's a crusade against the dogma that's built up in the reef hobby, blindly following decades old assumptions that are not supported by research.
I'm sorry too.
If you'd followed up on the roles of sponges in reef ecosystems you'd know you already have them. As DOC is their food source they will have already grown to match the amount of food available. As they are removing DOC 1000X faster than teh bacterioplankton your skimmers are removing you don't need much.
I'd certainly question the assumption every piece of equipment affects biology of a tank. But skimmers certainly do. Feldman's research shows reef systems without skimmers have natural bacterial counts while skimmed systems were way off.
Well, from what you're describing I don't see much difference from what I see when I stir things up. Of course looking close I see small particles which I see as healthy for the food webs in my systems but from 2-3 feet away the water looks quite clear. As far as cleaning out the sump that is something I always discourage along with the use of mechanical filtration as fish poop is an essential part of the carbonate cycle in reef ecosystems. When I moved this system last December to facilitate access a new sump was installed so the old sump would have been about 15 years without cleaning (last time it was moved).
Just to be devil's advocate, if the sponges already in my mature system ( it's moved around but I have rock that's been in my system for 20+ yrs, and the rock in my sump is covered in sponge) remove DOC at 1000x rate, why even care about the presence of a skimmer? It seems the sponges don't.
Paul B
Premium Member
This is an interesting discussion and to tell the truth I have been using a skimmer since Sanders came out with the thing in the early 70s and I still use one. I always built them myself and never thought to run my reef without one. But for an experiment, I may turn it off for a few weeks and see what happens.
My venturi skimmer is 5' tall and I normally run 50mg/hr Ozone through it just for fun.
My venturi skimmer is 5' tall and I normally run 50mg/hr Ozone through it just for fun.
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Because you are still altering the microbiomes. Look at Feldman's research, unskimmed systems have microbial counts in line with wild reefs. Skimmed systems are way off.
This is an interesting discussion and to tell the truth I have been using a skimmer since Sanders came out with the thing in the early 70s and I still use one. I always built them myself and never thought to run my reef without one. But for an experiment, I may turn it off for a few weeks and see what happens.
My venturi skimmer is 5' tall and I normally run 50mg/hr Ozone through it just for fun.
So how much of that yucky skimmate is actually cultured in the skimmer? One thing that has seemed incongruous to me is the presence of lots of anaerobic stuff in skimmers but no anaerobic pockets in systems when I move them.
One thing I'm intrigued by is your use of tidepool muck periodicly. Now that we can test for different microbial stuff a long term study of what happens to tank microbiomes whith wild microbes added versus not being added I think would be enlightning.
Your periodic use of diatom filter is another factor that I think plays into keeping healthy microbiome and I think deserves more attention. We know corals manipilate the microbial stuff in the water around them and shed their mucus layers as they age to renew the microbial stuff living in the mucus layers. Unlike skimmers which can't touch anything hydrophllic, diatom filters will remove everything above a certain size (1 micron?). Since both coral DOC and algae DOC can promote excessive bacterial growth that can be harmful (in particluar algae DOC promotes pathogenic shifts) periodicly reducing everything with a diatom filter may more closely mimic processes on reefs. (I've seen corals that have turned brown with out any change in maintenance or lighting return to normal coloration with just running a diatom filter a couple hours.)
Besides all the sponges you have
Paul B
Premium Member
I don't know why in the last 2 weeks or so the skimate is so thick. It doesn't liquify and stays a thick foam forever it seems.
I had to let it "blob" into a bucket. I am glad whatever it is the skimmer is removing it but in the long lifespan of this tank, this has never happened.
Fish and most corals seem fine. One large duncan hasn't opened in a couple of weeks and I don't know what that is about. Since I eliminated the sponge the water chemistry has been all screwed up.
I had to let it "blob" into a bucket. I am glad whatever it is the skimmer is removing it but in the long lifespan of this tank, this has never happened.
Fish and most corals seem fine. One large duncan hasn't opened in a couple of weeks and I don't know what that is about. Since I eliminated the sponge the water chemistry has been all screwed up.
I don't know why in the last 2 weeks or so the skimate is so thick. It doesn't liquify and stays a thick foam forever it seems.
I had to let it "blob" into a bucket. I am glad whatever it is the skimmer is removing it but in the long lifespan of this tank, this has never happened.
Fish and most corals seem fine. One large duncan hasn't opened in a couple of weeks and I don't know what that is about. Since I eliminated the sponge the water chemistry has been all screwed up.
I'd worry about what's being left behind since skimmers don't affect hydrophillic stuff like sponges do. It's fascinating what their finding sponges are messing with in reef systems. To reitterate or expound on some of your comments it seems as reef aquarists much of what we have accepted about carbon, nitrogen an phosphorus cycles is far too simplistic to adequitely understand the how they affect the microbial processes in reef systems.
