Difficult Fish - How difficult? Personal experiences?

[QuoVadis]

So today I was doing some research and dreaming/planning the big tank I hope to have someday not TOO long from now. And to be honest many of the fish that I just love and can't get over have a reputation for being difficult/impossible fish to keep. So I was curious to hear some personal stories regarding them. I am noticing a theme as I read about them that typically the hardest thing with many of these fish is feeding them - giving them a correct and varied diet, as well as finding one in good condition, caught and transported properly. So anyway, I thought I'd just put a list of fish that I adore, but that are difficult to keep, and hope some people can chime in with their personal experiences. (There must be at least few people how have has success because I have seen all these fish healthy and beautiful in a few tanks online.) So here they are, I have listed them somewhat in the order of how difficult I have heard they are, most difficult first.

Eight-band Butterflyfish (Chaetodon octofasciatus)
Rainford's Butterflyfish (Chaetodon rainfordi)
Multibar Angelfish (Paracentropyge multifasciata)
Venustus Angelfish (Paracentropyge venustus)
Rock Beauty Angelfish (Holacanthus tricolor)
Regal Angelfish (Pygoplites diacanthus)
Copperband Butterflyfish (Chelmon rostratus)

Anyone kept any of these personally, and if so what did you find to be the keys to your success?

 

[MoonSkin]

My family has owned a rock beauty for 4 years now. It was captured young by a friend of my dads and has been kept by him since. She is 10in long and eats a diet of locally caught macro algae(mostly ulva/lettuce), scallops, mussels and other by catch that is dumped by the shrimp boats here. She also gets an angelfish food that includes sponge in it. She live in a 75 gallon tank with a blue hamlet and a large lionfish that was also caught in Florida.

 

[jaa1456]

I have kept a copper banded butterfly twice, one for 7 years the other for 3 years. I lost the 3 year old when I transferred my fish to a smaller tank for an upgrade. The heater malfunctioned and I lost almost all the fish. I had a rock beauty years ago for about 5 years, I sold it to another hobbyist before I knew they were supposed to be difficult, this was back in the early 90's. I also had a regal once and that was also years ago in the late 90's,it was kept for about a year, I moved and broke down the tank sold the regal. These were all the first and only purchases of these fish, I made sure all of them were eating in the Lfs and swimming around normally. Not in a panic swim or chaotic pattern. I QT all of my fish as well with a copper treatment, I never do a full dose of copper but about 70%. I have heard that the two dwarfs you have listed do not fair well with copper though.

 

[SDguy]

Eight-band Butterflyfish (Chaetodon octofasciatus)
Rainford's Butterflyfish (Chaetodon rainfordi)
Multibar Angelfish (Paracentropyge multifasciata)
Venustus Angelfish (Paracentropyge venustus)
Rock Beauty Angelfish (Holacanthus tricolor)
Regal Angelfish (Pygoplites diacanthus)
Copperband Butterflyfish (Chelmon rostratus)

This is an interesting list. It doesn't include any fish that only eat coral polyps.... it's basically a list a fish that require special attention, that once met, will live well in an aquarium. I also think that some of these fish are "luck of the draw" in the sense that one specimen may be easy, but 5 others of that same species will not be...

 

[george915]

So today I was doing some research and dreaming/planning the big tank I hope to have someday not TOO long from now. And to be honest many of the fish that I just love and can't get over have a reputation for being difficult/impossible fish to keep. So I was curious to hear some personal stories regarding them. I am noticing a theme as I read about them that typically the hardest thing with many of these fish is feeding them - giving them a correct and varied diet, as well as finding one in good condition, caught and transported properly. So anyway, I thought I'd just put a list of fish that I adore, but that are difficult to keep, and hope some people can chime in with their personal experiences. (There must be at least few people how have has success because I have seen all these fish healthy and beautiful in a few tanks online.) So here they are, I have listed them somewhat in the order of how difficult I have heard they are, most difficult first.

Eight-band Butterflyfish (Chaetodon octofasciatus)
Rainford's Butterflyfish (Chaetodon rainfordi)
Multibar Angelfish (Paracentropyge multifasciata)
Venustus Angelfish (Paracentropyge venustus)
Rock Beauty Angelfish (Holacanthus tricolor)
Regal Angelfish (Pygoplites diacanthus)
Copperband Butterflyfish (Chelmon rostratus)

Anyone kept any of these personally, and if so what did you find to be the keys to your success?

Multibar & Venutus are not difficult to keep. They will eat anything once acclimated.
Rock beauty eats prepared food easily too. The problem with the fish is that its primary diet is sponge so it won't get all the nutrition from prepared food and slowly waste away in an aquarium.
Regal fish is hard to get one to eat prepare food. Best to find one that is already eating in the store. It's hard to find one that does it but taking your time and you will find one. Regal is a very common fish especially the indo ones therefore you will have a lot of selection.

 

[Winwood]

My LFS has two eight banned butterflyfish for over two months now. I witnessed both of them feeding on brine and mysis shrimp a week ago. It was funny because they are both kept in tank with fake acroporids and initially they were constantly looking them over and pecking at them.

 

[SDguy]

Rock beauty eats prepared food easily too. The problem with the fish is that its primary diet is sponge so it won't get all the nutrition from prepared food and slowly waste away in an aquarium.

I know this is the commonly held belief, but why would it be different for rock beauties, and not most other angels that are also primarily sponge and tunicate eaters? IMO it's all about quantity of food. If a fish, ANY fish, eats enough food that it can digest, it will live. I think rock beauties just aren't as bullet proof as other Holacanthus, so they get a bad rap

 

[MrTuskfish]

I keep the CBB, Rock beauty, and a regal Angel. Just a few observations: I would never buy a CBB or RA (or any other fish) from Indonesia or The Phillipiines. (be especially cautious of buying a Rock beauty from there!) These countries have countless islands that make policing collection laws impossible. I think the rock beauty has a better chance when acquired at a small size; before they've developed a diet that is tough to duplicate, (like most angels). CBBs don't do well with bullies or even overly-active tankmates. They like things calm and quiet. Most of the problems with these 3 fish seem to be getting them eating properly. A well planned QT is a big help with this. Get them eating well before putting into the DT. An obvious rule for any fish. Also, I think all fish do better in a tank that has been running and healthy for at least a year and the 3 fish above sure seem better off. Difficult fish and new tanks (or tank owners) just don't mix.

 

[SDguy]

I would never buy a CBB or RA (or any other fish) from Indonesia or The Phillipiines. (be especially cautious of buying a Rock beauty from there!)

I lol'ed

 

[Winwood]

^^^^me too.

 

[QuoVadis]

So if you were to order from a place like LA (with the 14 day guarantee) or a reputable LFS, let them settle in and eat well for a couple months before allowing them have competition for food, place them in an established aquarium, with lots of flourishing LR, most of these (especially interested in the RB, CBB, Multiband and the Regal) would have a good chance of success?

 

[Ambition]

Multibar & Venutus are not difficult to keep. They will eat anything once acclimated.

The primary issue with this is finding specimens that will live through the acclimation period, or even eat during this time span. Venustus angels are commonly collected from Cebu, which is in the Philippines (I think, been awhile since I looked at common collection areas). These areas, like MrTuskfish stated earlier, don't have the most controlled collection practices. Use of cyanide and the like are sometimes used, which means the life of the fish is drastically shortened unless you get one that actually lives through it. Multibars from Indonesia have a similar problem. Multibars from Marshall Islands or Vanuatu have a much better chance, and are easier to care for from my research.

Like any other difficult fish, the reason is them being difficult to acclimate to captive live. They need special attention from the care taker. The care taker with tons of experience is usually best as they can pick up on things a newer aquarist will miss. Even after acclimation, some of these fish won't be quite as bullet proof as the easier fish so a stable environment is another part of the equation.

I also want to point out to the OP, there are Fish Primers on several of the species listed. Well worth reading through once or twice, shows success stories as well as specimens that don't always make it.

 

[SDguy]

The care taker with tons of experience AND TIME is usually best

ftfy So often these types of fish eat one or two mysis per feeding to get started. Frequent feedings are often a must.... and water quality as a result needs special attention too.

 

[Ambition]

ftfy So often these types of fish eat one or two mysis per feeding to get started. Frequent feedings are often a must.... and water quality as a result needs special attention too.

Peter, thanks for the fix. Typed as I was getting ready for work, and thought I missed something. Time is so often overlooked with the difficult-to-feed fish. This is why I recommend 3-5 feedings per day just to ensure everyone in your tank gets the food they need to thrive. I also want to say having access to fresh seafoods like clams, oysters, etc is a good thing to have. I know it helps for some angels and butterflyfish that won't eat other foods offered.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I know this is the commonly held belief, but why would it be different for rock beauties, and not most other angels that are also primarily sponge and tunicate eaters? IMO it's all about quantity of food. If a fish, ANY fish, eats enough food that it can digest, it will live. I think rock beauties just aren't as bullet proof as other Holacanthus, so they get a bad rap

After the Packers losing, I'll geek-out (my Son's label) on RC.

This whole sponge thing has been around forever. I don't do the research I used to do (that's what you guys are for, there are great folks on this forum with enough knowledge to fill ******'s bloomers). But I don't remember ever reading anything that proved that any fish NEEDED sponge. (There probably is something, though). This is why I like to buy fish that show a preference for hard to get foods at a small size. their food choices are not yet imprinted on their little brains. After a rough start, many years ago, I've done very well with Moorish Idols, Rock Beauties, and other fish that "must have'' sponge. I don't feed much sponge at all, just a bit in some of the frozen Angel formulas.


Along these same lines are all the statements that SW fish shouldn't be fed FW foods. PE Mysis (probably the most popular mysis) and most spirulina algae are both FW products. I do agree that FW feeder fish are a bad idea; in any quantity. FW fish are just fat; wiggle the belly on a 6# bass---flabby!. You can'y do this with a 6# bonefish---rock solid.

Back on topic, and I don't think this is said often enough, maybe because it sounds snobby but shouldn't. When it comes to keeping difficult fish, experience counts for plenty. A new hobbyist can try a difficult fish and follow what he's researched to the letter, and still lose the fish. Any experienced hobbyist could lose the fish too; but the intangibles of experience give him the edge. This is true in any endeavor I can think of. My other passion, outside of the obvious, is flying and I know that experienced pilots can do a lots of stuff that a novice should never even think of doing. A long way of saying that many fish should not be kept by new hobbyists; no matter how much research they do. Experienced hobbyists can just spot a sick from across the room ; while it may still look normal to the newer guy. My Wife & youngest Kid have the same ability with coral and other inverts, I don't. Exceptions? Of course, there is an exception to everything in our hobby.

 

[QuoVadis]

This is somewhat of a side topic, but Peter, I am interested in your experiences with your FOWLR Butterfly/Angel tank, because this is the goal I am ultimately working toward. I have also considered doing something similar, but smaller, with an emphasis on dwarf angels and smaller butterflyfish. IME generally fish that are somewhat aggressive toward conspecifics do better either kept singly, or with three or more. Does this hold true with angels and butterflies?

For example, would this be workable in a tank somewhere in the 125-200 range (at least 6ft in length).

1 Bicolor dwarf angel
1 Coral Beauty
1 Flame Angel
1 Eibli Angel

1 Latticed Butterfly
1 Kleins Butterfly
1 Pearlscale OR Mertensii Butterfly
1 Punctafacto OR Dot Dash Butterfly

All these butterflies are on Bob Fenners list of "good" butterflies on Wetwebmedia, with the exception of the Dot Dash, which he says is not as hardy as the Punctfacto; but I have not found this distinction anywhere else.

Plus, as the show fish of the tank, (the fish I willing to put more work into, because though they are difficult, they are special)
1 Regal Angel
1 CBB

Other than the last two all the fish stay under 6in, most under 5in, so they really aren't that big, and with the bigger group of fish, plus that all the fish have different coloration, it seems to me it would help mitigate the aggression. Could something like this work?

N.B. (I very experienced with FW fish, and also some experience with saltwater, but I have never had a LARGE SW tank, thus not any large fish.)

 

[alton]

Regal Angel, getting my adults to eat well took weeks. My juvenile that I received from NY Aquatics ate the next day (all are suppose to be from the Red Sea)
Rock Beauty I would order from Kara at Sea Life Inc. they are small and eat very well.
Copper Bands I have always added them to reef tanks and never had an issue (i guess I just got lucky?)

 

[SDguy]

This is somewhat of a side topic, but Peter, I am interested in your experiences with your FOWLR Butterfly/Angel tank, because this is the goal I am ultimately working toward. I have also considered doing something similar, but smaller, with an emphasis on dwarf angels and smaller butterflyfish. IME generally fish that are somewhat aggressive toward conspecifics do better either kept singly, or with three or more. Does this hold true with angels and butterflies?

With butterflies, my experience has been that it is just MUCH easier to keep single species specimens. Unless you have lots of room (ie aquariums) and want to try getting groups (ie 5 or more) and then hoping they all get along long-term, or a pair forms and you have to remove the other three.... save yourself the headaches.

My experience with centropyge angels is much less. With the few species I've kept (flames, coral beauties, argi's etc) I never had a problem mixing species. However, I also never had a problem keeping pairs or harems. I've just never done both in the same tank, so maybe someone else with more experience (ie can spawning pairs co-exist in the same tank) will chime in...

For example, would this be workable in a tank somewhere in the 125-200 range (at least 6ft in length).

1 Bicolor dwarf angel
1 Coral Beauty
1 Flame Angel
1 Eibli Angel

1 Latticed Butterfly
1 Kleins Butterfly
1 Pearlscale OR Mertensii Butterfly
1 Punctafacto OR Dot Dash Butterfly

All these butterflies are on Bob Fenners list of "good" butterflies on Wetwebmedia, with the exception of the Dot Dash, which he says is not as hardy as the Punctfacto; but I have not found this distinction anywhere else.

Plus, as the show fish of the tank, (the fish I willing to put more work into, because though they are difficult, they are special)
1 Regal Angel
1 CBB

I think a 6' x 2' footprint would be a great size for your with list, if you can fit it, with room to spare (a 180g or 210g would fit that footprint).

 

[QuoVadis]

Regal Angel, getting my adults to eat well took weeks. My juvenile that I received from NY Aquatics ate the next day (all are suppose to be from the Red Sea)
Rock Beauty I would order from Kara at Sea Life Inc. they are small and eat very well.
Copper Bands I have always added them to reef tanks and never had an issue (i guess I just got lucky?)

This is good to know, because I would probably have to order online because there is only one LFS that has healthy marine fish, and they jack their prices up (to probably 2x Live Aquaria prices) I think just because they know they can and people will still buy from them. When the time comes, which realistically is still at least a couple years, I'll probably do a bunch of research to find out what places people have had success ordering from.

Anyone ever ordered from Bluezooaquatics? They have a positively stunning selection of fish.

 

[QuoVadis]

With butterflies, my experience has been that it is just MUCH easier to keep single species specimens. Unless you have lots of room (ie aquariums) and want to try getting groups (ie 5 or more) and then hoping they all get along long-term, or a pair forms and you have to remove the other three.... save yourself the headaches.

Sorry, I may not have made this clear but I was saying I thought 3 or more related fish (e.g. centrophyge) of different species would lead to the least aggression (other than keeping them singly perhaps).

But minus the last two fish on the list have you had good experiences with the butterfly species I have listed? Are there any you would recommend above them?

Also, one last question, have you ever kept a tang with butterflies like these? I have heard they can be aggressive because of the similar body shape. But as far as that kind of thing goes it seems like most fish (aggression wise) are just the luck of the draw. I was considering finishing this tank by adding, very last, a sailfin, mimic or powder brown tang (not the gold rim tang that often gets sold as powder brown).
I have this weird thing with fish that they their bodies have to have a certain balance and their faces have to look "nice" for me to like them, so these are the only tangs I really care for. I think hippos, and all the big ones like clowns and sohols are ugly, yellows are just ok. That is also why I love butterflies, dwarf angels, and some large angels. They are simply the most beautiful, graceful fish available, IMO.