dino experiment

[Pants]

2nd What do you think of the idea of creating a place they like to grow, cleaning and repeat. I am curios if they would, eventually exhaust whatever they are thriving on. I do not by the idea that they are a byproduct of high nutrients. I am thinking more nutrient imbalance which decreases other normal flora allowing these to bloom.

You could build a dino trap. When you do your lights out you could have a small area with a spotlight. The dinos will congregate there. (You can do the same thing for flatworms).

Movement into the water column at night is likely due to an adaptation to avoid predators.

 

[Chris Abbott]

That is what I was thinking. I have a 25 micron filter ordered and I am going to keep up manual removal and increasing my nutrient levels. I am also going to look into additives that are for increasing good micro fauna. Once I get the numbers down I'm going to filter extensively to drive the number even lower and hit the tank with a large dose of beneficial fauna. Whether it works or not, I shooting for an obvious result.
My problem did not arrive until I added a skimmer to my system. I already use an ATS and I think the water got stripped to much allowing these to take over. I may be complexly lost but from the level of success people seam to post a new theory and extra testing isn't going to hurt our knowledge on the subject.

 

[SurlyT]

That is what I was thinking. I have a 25 micron filter ordered and I am going to keep up manual removal and increasing my nutrient levels. I am also going to look into additives that are for increasing good micro fauna. Once I get the numbers down I'm going to filter extensively to drive the number even lower and hit the tank with a large dose of beneficial fauna. Whether it works or not, I shooting for an obvious result.

Out of curiosity, what kind of micro fauna are you thinking of? Do you mean bacterial supplements like MicroBacter7 or ProDibio BioDigest?

 

[Chris Abbott]

That was my idea but I'm just more confused after more reading. thoughts?

 

[SurlyT]

I'm no expert on this stuff, so please take what I write in the shrugging, palms-up spirit in which it's intended.

This is a long thread, and if you read through enough of it, you'll realize people have had a wide variety of results doing a wide variety of things to fight dinoflagellates:

• Blackouts to interrupt photosynthesis
• Manual removal - siphoning rocks and sand, and/or using filter socks
• Starving them out through nutrient reduction - refugiums and/or algae scrubbers
• Starving them out via nutrient elevation - helping other algae grow in order to outcompete them
• "Dinocides" like Algae X

Even people with the same type of dinos (e.g. Ostreopsis) can have completely different results with the same approach. How can that be? It almost doesn't make any logical sense at all.

My gut is that because these things are heterotrophic, they have a wider range of acceptable conditions (light, pH, nutrient levels, trace element levels, and so on) that they can live within than your average nuisance algae. When the combination of those various levels in your system hits a certain threshold, there are too few nutrients for the other algaes but enough for the dinos, so they suddenly have little to no competition and blossom out of control. So either raising or lowering those levels enough can take you back out of that dino zone in one direction or the other and solve the problem. The question then becomes how to stay at that new level, since your system obviously gravitated to where was for a reason. And that new level could come with its own set of ancillary issues (other nuisance algaes, poor coral growth, etc.).

Trying to beat these things seems an awful lot like fighting cancer. We try different approaches based on the symptoms we see and parameters we can measure, but there are things going on at this level about which we don't have enough info and knowledge to fight intelligently. Who knows how many variant strains of Ostreopsis there are, or how each strain's specific nutrient requirements differ? I don't know that it's possible to have enough detailed info to plot a course of action that you know will work in a given tank, so all we can do is try different things and pay attention to the results.

In my case, the Algae X and reduced light seem to have brought the dino population way down for the moment - but I seriously doubt it's permanent because I haven't changed anything else in my system. So for longterm control, I hope to go in the direction of very low nutrients since I'm an SPS freak. I'm going to be religious about my filter socks and will probably start filtering down to 50 μm. I plan to start dosing BioDigest/Bioptim and I'm also setting up an algae scrubber to pull out nutrients. I'll probably starting feeding more and may dose an iron supplement along the way to help maintain algae growth in the scrubber.

I don't know if any of this will work, but it's the extent of my plan at this point. If I don't feel like the tank is back on track in 90-120 days of this struggle, I might try changing salts to change the trace element balance. Beyond that are only the drastic measures like nuking the tank and starting over or getting out entirely.

I'm sure none of this is news to you, but if it helps you decide what to try next then at least you're taking steps. In that light I hope it helps.

 

[Chris Abbott]

Very well said, thanks. I will be sure to share anything I learn during my trials.

 

[natas]

I have been fighting Dino for over 3 months now. Here is what I have done that seems to finally be working. I am now on day 10

Day 1-3
3 days Lights out + 1ml per 10G H2O2

The lights out + H2O2 weakened them to over half the pupulation

After this I have continued my H2O2 dosing and now siphon out as much as I can from the sand bed. Everyday seems to be getting better. I now have only a few small spots. I also have not done any water changes during these 10 days. 2 months ago I tried lights out and it cut them down a bit but the day I did a water change they came back the next day twice as strong.

I am going to continue dosing H2O2 and may do another 3 days lights out next week if they are not gone by then.

 

[ryan1985]

I would say I'm on the verge of starting over, quitting, or at least going the peroxide route as a last ditch effort. I've been battling dino's for over a year, and the hobby is no longer fun.

We pour money into these tanks because in the end, we get to enjoy them, but if you're constantly dreading looking at your tank, it can suck the fun out of keeping it real quick. The only thing that's kept me going is the amount of $ in equipment and livestock that i have invested - not to mention hundreds of hours of research to get to the point of feeling like I know what I'm doing. It sickens me to think that could be wasted.

What I've tried with 0 success in eradicating dino's:

- huge/frequent water changes, siphoning of sandbed
- no water changes for months
- dosing algea-x
- long periods of lights out - 14 days at one point!
- filter socks in sump
- wet skimming
- running phosguard
- minimal feeding
- more flow (new WP25's to replace a couple of MJ's)
- replacing older T5 bulbs with Reefbreeder LEDs
- removing my refugium
- adding a 25W Aqua UV sterilizer (almost $300, ugh)

Nothing has worked. Some of the above methods can make my sandbed look okay for 1-2 days, but then it's back as if I never made any changes.

I think the scariest part is reading accounts of hobbyists who have started over, and it still comes back... that is a terrifying prospect.

I have mostly soft coral so I haven't had any huge losses, although one of my LPS is half-bleached from the 2 week lights out. I also have seen the dino's sticking to other corals, and I've used a tooth brush and turkey baster to remove them.

 

[jwscuba]

Wow, just finished reading from the beginning; great information. I have a very minor attack but do not want it to get out of hand. Thanks for all of the ideas for fighting the menace.

Jerome

 

[rog2961]

I will add one thing I think would help a majority of people here. I think the addition of a turf scrubber (well grown in) in addition to the lights out period will tip the balance over to GHA. Suck up all the nutrients before the Dino can.

 

[rog2961]

I would say I'm on the verge of starting over, quitting, or at least going the peroxide route as a last ditch effort. I've been battling dino's for over a year, and the hobby is no longer fun.

We pour money into these tanks because in the end, we get to enjoy them, but if you're constantly dreading looking at your tank, it can suck the fun out of keeping it real quick. The only thing that's kept me going is the amount of $ in equipment and livestock that i have invested - not to mention hundreds of hours of research to get to the point of feeling like I know what I'm doing. It sickens me to think that could be wasted.

What I've tried with 0 success in eradicating dino's:

- huge/frequent water changes, siphoning of sandbed
- no water changes for months
- dosing algea-x
- long periods of lights out - 14 days at one point!
- filter socks in sump
- wet skimming
- running phosguard
- minimal feeding
- more flow (new WP25's to replace a couple of MJ's)
- replacing older T5 bulbs with Reefbreeder LEDs
- removing my refugium
- adding a 25W Aqua UV sterilizer (almost $300, ugh)

Nothing has worked. Some of the above methods can make my sandbed look okay for 1-2 days, but then it's back as if I never made any changes.

I think the scariest part is reading accounts of hobbyists who have started over, and it still comes back... that is a terrifying prospect.

I have mostly soft coral so I haven't had any huge losses, although one of my LPS is half-bleached from the 2 week lights out. I also have seen the dino's sticking to other corals, and I've used a tooth brush and turkey baster to remove them.

I would do all of the above + using a powerhead to blow crap off the rocks. I did this and was amazed by all the buildup.

 

[Pants]

I've had dinos people sent me in mail survive in a tiny tube in the dark of an envelop for a month. A lights out regime on its own isn't going to kill the dinos before everything else in your tank also dies. You must couple the lights out period with other extermination techniques. How is your UV sterilizer plumbed into the system? Would it be possible to have a light on the spot where water is sucked in?

 

[ryan1985]

I've had dinos people sent me in mail survive in a tiny tube in the dark of an envelop for a month. A lights out regime on its own isn't going to kill the dinos before everything else in your tank also dies. You must couple the lights out period with other extermination techniques. How is your UV sterilizer plumbed into the system? Would it be possible to have a light on the spot where water is sucked in?

i'm currently experimenting with peroxide.. dangerous? sure, but difficult to ignore the success stories, and i've tried so many other methods that i'm willing to go the chemical warfare route.

UV is currently plumbed last. so the display tank hits my overflow, goes down into the sump, over to my return, then the return brings the water through a chiller, and then finally to the UV before returning back to my tank (hmm, maybe my turnover rate is the issue haha)

 

[Pants]

I'd want the water moving through that UV sterilizer nice and slowly and as close to the DT as possible. Not sure if that is practical though.

If it were me, I'd be using peroxide too. I'm actually a bit baffled that it doesn't work for some people. Frustratingly I can't seem to keep these guys alive in the lab long enough to test extermination methods.

 

[ryan1985]

I'd want the water moving through that UV sterilizer nice and slowly and as close to the DT as possible. Not sure if that is practical though..

The water is running through the UV fairly slowly considering my return pump is first feeding a chiller that's about 5 feet away (and then a few feet back to the UV). My logic with plumbing the UV last was that anything that goes back into the display, including anything that was previously in the sump, will need to hit the UV before it gets returned to the display tank. I'm actually mildly concerned about my turn over rate considering the distance everything is traveling from a single pump.

If it were me, I'd be using peroxide too.

Coming from someone with a ton of expertise on this subject, that's comforting to hear! Thus far, no ill effects on my tank. Knock on wood...

 

[Pants]

My logic with plumbing the UV last was that anything that goes back into the display, including anything that was previously in the sump, will need to hit the UV before it gets returned to the display tank.

That makes sense. My thinking was to use a light to lure them into the UV. They are phototaxic, so if you can use that to lure them into the UV sterilizer you'd be doing more than just catching the ones that get high enough into the water column to go over your overflow.

 

[ryan1985]

That makes sense. My thinking was to use a light to lure them into the UV. They are phototaxic, so if you can use that to lure them into the UV sterilizer you'd be doing more than just catching the ones that get high enough into the water column to go over your overflow.

ahh, i gotcha... that didn't even cross my mind, but sounds like a good tip. unfortunately with my limited space though, i have my UV mounted in the cabinet/stand of my tank, so the crystal/light is going to be pretty well hidden no matter where it's plumbed. this does bring to mind some interesting trapping ideas though...

 

[Pants]

this does bring to mind some interesting trapping ideas though...

yes something as simple as a trap paired with a filter sock and return pump could work as well.

 

[mussel and hate]

I like the dino trap concept. It seems a sure win.

Twice in 30ish years I've encountered a dino bloom, both times in the spring. The first time my tank was crashing from copper contamintation(figured it out after the fact, failed insulator on a submerged power cord). The second time was a couple weeks ago. I checked the RO filter and wouldn't you know it 110ppm. I changed the membrane, changed some water and filtered the snot, problem solved.

Lights out periods are placebo at best. I'm glad you mentioned the fact that these bacteria survive for months in the mail with no light. This should put to rest any notion that light deprivation is a solution.

Peroxide could work but the jury is out and the potential hazards reduce the appeal. I'll file other snake-oil algae/dino cure-all products in this category until someone can present a reasonable explanation for how such actually works(and I can validate it through testing).

A dedicated toothbrush and siphon hose made short work of this bloom once the top up water was within spec. I can see how this sort of solution isn't practical for non-nano reef keepers.

Say... what are these dinoflagellate predators that encourage night time pelagic behaviour?

 

[natas]

I think some people have strains of Dino that produce slower or are weaker. The strain I have is very nasty. I have been scrubbing and siphoning everyday multiple times a day for over a month. They always come back. H2O2, plus high alk/ph, plus lights out, plus scrub/siphon seems to be weakening them. Only time will tell if this will work 100%

Also I have tried nitrates/phosphates at really low levels and the opposite. Neither really affect mine, but water changes are a sure way to double the amount of Dino in my tank. And this is with my rodi water at 0 tds.