dino experiment

[Quiet_Ivy]

Every now and then I observe the glass of my fuge using my nanoscope, just to see what is going on. In the past I have observed what I assumed was dinos circling on the glass. At 48x magnification they appeared as small circles moving in a repetitive circular motion. Recently I started dosing live phyto into the fuge, and I noticed that the number of these UMO (unidentified microscopic organisms) have increased.

So my question is, even though dinos have flagellates, and can move, do they react to external stimuli?

Dennis

Not an expert, but at 48x those look too big to be dinos. Joseph.lucketta's micro pics were at 100x iirc. Could be nauplii or who knows what, as you said. Just about everything microscopic should react to light/dark. Many dinos are predatory so I imagine they have pretty good reactions.

I'm interested in that nanoscope, what kind of magnification can you get? You are more coordinated than I; I wouldn't even have tried juggling 3 things.

@Joseph does your bottle of Dino X list an active ingredient? I can't find it, there doesn't even seem to be an MSD sheet. Your tank looks awesome.

hth
Ivy

 

[joseph.lucketta]

Hey Ivy, that's high praise! I'm looking at the bottle and I don't see an active ingredient, but it says that it contains Ammonium compounds and tensids, whatever those are.

As an update, I stopped dosing after the 5th dose. My nutrient levels reached a point (especially my nitrates) where the coral started to brown out, and since I have a Somewhere Over The Rainbow Millepora frag that I'm trying to save I decided to cut the dosage a little short. I haven't reverted back to my original light schedule, but I did ramp it up by a couple hours and increased the intensity by 10%. So far, I haven't seen any massive resurgence in dinos, but time will tell.

 

[dartier]

I'm interested in that nanoscope, what kind of magnification can you get? You are more coordinated than I; I wouldn't even have tried juggling 3 things.

The nanoscope is capable of a maximum 48x magnification. Sadly, it looks like it has been discontinued. (http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/d-d-nanoscope)

There is a UK competitor to the nanoscope (http://www.ogles.info/) that is still available though.

I mainly use mine to examine the inside glass surface of my fuge and tank. It is also handy for looking at the undersides of monticaps for montipora eating nudis and their eggs ... sadly a pest which seems to be back in my tank.

I thought I was rid of them (MEN) as they had been absent for about 6 months. So either they came in on another frag or they were never really gone. I added 3 peppermint shrimp today. I am not certain, but I suspect that the peppermint's that were in the tank before were helping to keep the MEN in check and once I lost the last shrimp, the MEN came back in full force.

Dennis

 

[joseph.lucketta]

Ok, Dino X failed to eliminate the dinos and now they are resurging. Per my LFS' instructions, I tried raising pH with Seachem Reef Buffer, but all that did was throw my system out of balance (because it raises Alk along with pH), and the longest I could get my tank to stay at 8.6 pH before falling back to 8.3 was only a couple of hours.

Today I have an ATO coming in with Kalkwasser. I'll try this method to raise the pH since this is the preferred method, according to RHF. Since I noticed the dinos resurging, I've been dosing 1ml per 10 gallons of H2O2, but I haven't seen any noticeable effects. Will keep chugging along...

 

[Quiet_Ivy]

Ok, Dino X failed to eliminate the dinos and now they are resurging. Per my LFS' instructions, I tried raising pH with Seachem Reef Buffer, but all that did was throw my system out of balance (because it raises Alk along with pH), and the longest I could get my tank to stay at 8.6 pH before falling back to 8.3 was only a couple of hours.

Today I have an ATO coming in with Kalkwasser. I'll try this method to raise the pH since this is the preferred method, according to RHF. Since I noticed the dinos resurging, I've been dosing 1ml per 10 gallons of H2O2, but I haven't seen any noticeable effects. Will keep chugging along...

Aw, man, that sucks. I'm holding out for Dino X as a last resort. Did you do the full 21 days? Have you looked at the suckers under a scope?

My LFS recommended the pH rise as well. RHF linked some papers which looked very promising.
Fingers crossed
Ivy

 

[joseph.lucketta]

Maybe I was reading the instructions wrong, but from what I understood, the treatment for dinos was supposed to be 15 days and everything else was 21...but perhaps I had it backwards. I think on the previous page I posted several youtube videos that I shot identifying the dinos in my tank as the ostreopsis variety. Another poster warned me that dino X wouldn't have any effect on them. While that wasn't entirely true (since it definitely knocked the back by a large margin), I think that the only way to move on is complete eradication.

So now I have my ATO in (the Tunze nano version), but unfortunately it came with a sensor that doesn't work. However, I can still dose the kalkwasser since the ATO pump works. I just unplug/replug it and it kicks on. Right now my pH is sitting at 8.7, but it dips back below 8.3 during the night, so I'm thinking I might go with a kalk slurry during the day since I am present for that, then perhaps kick on the ATO right before I go to bed to get the pH nice and high overnight.

I'm also doing a lights out period. I just started today because I really didn't think that lights out contributed to eliminating these buggers, but I'm going with the multi-pronged assault come hell or high water. It's not a full blackout with cardboard covering the tank, but luckily the tank is located in a part of the house that doesn't get a lot of natural light. I can't imagine there's much PAR reaching in there. Since I have a RBTA, I'm only planning on 48 hours, but we'll see.

Lastly, I'm dosing 1ml per 10 gallons of H2O2 twice a day (for a total of 2ml per 10 gallons), once in the morning, and once in the evening. I have been doing just 1ml per 10g for the last week or so, but haven't seen much effect. But it also hasn't been detrimental to any life in the tank.

I have to believe that this combination has to have some effect on these things. Just from the experiments I did with my microscope I saw fantastic results with the raised pH and the H2O2. That combination alone should devastate the dinos. My thinking is that having the lights out only serves to keep them in the water column so that the treatments can be more effective. Whatever the case, I will update with my results.

 

[Quiet_Ivy]

Multi prong attacks are the way to go, for sure.

I saw your videos-with great interest. I have the posts tagged to send other people trying to id their dinos there. I meant, 'are you sure that this recurrance of dinos is the same species as last time?' Pants had mentioned that several people had dinos come back, and when he checked, it was a different species. Ostreopsis does seem to be a resistant sucker.

Blackouts, and hydrogen peroxide haven't worked for me, sadly. I did dose at 1mL /10g at night. 2 or even 3 might be better. The H2O2 probably degrades too fast in a tank as opposed to a petri dish. Watch any shrimp in genus Lysmata, they don't seem to like it.

Have you tried some of the 'dirty' methods like adding phyto, pods?

hth
ivy (between contracts=lots of time on RC

 

[joseph.lucketta]

Well I'm very happy that someone can get some use out of those videos! My hope was that they could help someone potentially ID and/or treat their dino problem, especially if it was ostreopsis. I did confirm via microscope that my resurgence was the same strand of dinos and I can't say that I'm too surprised that they came back. My own tests showed that the Dino X had virtually no effect on them (albeit over a very short period of time).

I've just finished my latest treatment and it seems that the results are MUCH more promising! I did a combination of a 3-day blackout, using kalkwasser (via slurry since I don't have enough water volume to do saturated kalkwasser) to keep the pH between 8.5-8.9, and twice daily dosing of H2O2 at 1ml per 10 gallons (so 2ml per 10g total per day). After the Dino X treatment, I took a sample of the water and saw that there were still dinos in the sample, but much much less than before. However, I took a sample this morning after my latest offensive and I couldn't find a single dino cell anywhere in that petri dish! Now, of course that doesn't mean that they're completely eradicated. I don't want to get too excited too early, but honestly, my tank is practically sparkling right now it's so clean. As far as side effects go concerning the H2O2 dosing...none, not a single casualty. I have a mandarin that's as fat as ever, a lawnmower blenny that's a bit skinny from now having much greenery/slime to munch on, but no worse for wear, and all crabs present and accounted for (except for those that my Melanurus Wrasse has decided to chomp on). Again, I will report in a few more days. I certainly hope I'm done with this scourge though!

 

[Billybatz9]

Well I'm very happy that someone can get some use out of those videos! My hope was that they could help someone potentially ID and/or treat their dino problem, especially if it was ostreopsis. I did confirm via microscope that my resurgence was the same strand of dinos and I can't say that I'm too surprised that they came back. My own tests showed that the Dino X had virtually no effect on them (albeit over a very short period of time).

I've just finished my latest treatment and it seems that the results are MUCH more promising! I did a combination of a 3-day blackout, using kalkwasser (via slurry since I don't have enough water volume to do saturated kalkwasser) to keep the pH between 8.5-8.9, and twice daily dosing of H2O2 at 1ml per 10 gallons (so 2ml per 10g total per day). After the Dino X treatment, I took a sample of the water and saw that there were still dinos in the sample, but much much less than before. However, I took a sample this morning after my latest offensive and I couldn't find a single dino cell anywhere in that petri dish! Now, of course that doesn't mean that they're completely eradicated. I don't want to get too excited too early, but honestly, my tank is practically sparkling right now it's so clean. As far as side effects go concerning the H2O2 dosing...none, not a single casualty. I have a mandarin that's as fat as ever, a lawnmower blenny that's a bit skinny from now having much greenery/slime to munch on, but no worse for wear, and all crabs present and accounted for (except for those that my Melanurus Wrasse has decided to chomp on). Again, I will report in a few more days. I certainly hope I'm done with this scourge though!

So was it in the Dino x that killed off Most? Or the ph?

 

[joseph.lucketta]

Oh, it was most definitely the higher pH/blackout/H2O2 that really knocked the dinos back....however, it hasn't completely eradicated them. I just took another sample, and those little suckers are still in the tank! In fact, I've kept the pH higher even after the blackout period and I still dose 2.5ml H2O2 after lights out (1ml per 10 gallons) and they're still in the tank, albeit at greatly reduced numbers. With the Dino X treatment, the dinos returned very soon after the treatment continued spreading quite rapidly.

Right now I'm wondering if there's any more I can do to fix the situation or if they'll eventually just go away on their own. A friend of mine says that it's a natural part of tank cycling and maturation, but I haven't really heard that anywhere else, so I'm not sure about that.

 

[Fish Keeper82]

Well after reading all 910 posts i have gained a bit of knowledge thanks to all of your experiences. I know i have Dinos Ostreopsis by my id under a microscope.
I had ordered Dino X before reading and it should arrive tommorow. I just want it on standby if all else fails.

I have an observation in my tank that no one has brought up in this thread (unless i forgot reading it or for some reason). My dinos started a while back in light proportion so i agree that Dinos is likely in all our tanks and only become a problem when nutrients play a role. For me they started to show up when my phosphates reached low levels .04 and less now my latest readins were of 0 PO4 and i have not changed my GFO in 2 months.
As my Dinos get worse it is a a very slow gradual pase. It started out as a thin film on rocks and on corals that caused them to close up for a bit.

Now to my observation...... the Dinos in my tank grow in heavy numbers only in certain areas which are the sand floor. Only 2 spots on the sand floor to be percise. And they are about 12"X8" sections at most out of a 72"X18" foot print. There is no red flag i can see since these areas are not the same light intensities and not on either end as to say these two spots are not the darkest or the strogest lighting.So how is it that out of the whole floor my Dinos only show up in high visible numbers in these two spots? This is after heavy siphoning of all the sand floor and blasting the entire tank and i dont use a turkey baster to do it.... I use a Koralia 1500 and take it blasting all areas of the tank. I try and get the Dinos in the water column to get caught in my filter sock. I also brush the rock off with a tooth brush as well.
After all that Dinos is visible a bit at the end of the day then starts to be more visible as the days go on. Any thought why the high consentrations would be in the same areas time after time? This has repeated about 4 times now. Anyone else experience this? I can't be the only one unless i have something wierd going on.
Definitely Dinos, the signs are all there, stringy brown slime , bubbles, and it has the tether ball motion under the microscope.

 

[Fish Keeper82]

Has anyone tried to heavily target them with UV and not just setting up a UV on the system and treat with H202 out of the system? Im thinking of siphoning as much as i can off the rocks and sand into a 20 gallon brute can and a few filter socks in that trash can. I was planning on setting up my coralife turbo 6 UV inline with my syphon hose. This should at least force the heaviest of Dinos consentrations thru the UV. Once i have all the visible Dinos in my Brute can i can remove those filter socks and set up the UV with a maxijet to constantly UV sterilize this 20 gallons of water with a flow ratet of 400 gallons an hr or so. In planning on leaving this water UV setup cycling for 3 hrs. That should be multiple passes thru the UV for the Dinos. Maybe even do 1 hrs at at 100 gph rate at the end for a longer contact time (even though mu UV is rated for the full 400 gph at least)then use a 5 micron sediment filter to hopefully cath most of the Dino ruptured cells as the water goes back in the tank. Add some H202 to kill them also maybe at a heavier dose than 1ml to 10 gallons( if i double or tripple this dose how long do i need to wait so the effects of the H2O2 pass and i can add back in to the tank an not effect my cleaner shrimps? I read somewhere in this post this only lasts a couple on mins and just want to confirm that. This should kill most of the visible Dinos. Then install the UV in the sump for continuing serilizing of the system and hopefully get some of the Dinos in the water column. Since my tank has low nutriensts at the moment maybe ill add more food so other algae can out compete the Dinos since ut is weakened.

Let that run for a few days/ hopefully weeks if it some what works before addind a secondary treatment like H2O2 or the Dino X to the display itself.
Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[salty joe]

There is no red flag i can see since these areas are not the same light intensities and not on either end as to say these two spots are not the darkest or the strogest lighting.So how is it that out of the whole floor my Dinos only show up in high visible numbers in these two spots?

I'm guessing your flow pattern.

 

[Billybatz9]

Well after reading all 910 posts i have gained a bit of knowledge thanks to all of your experiences. I know i have Dinos Ostreopsis by my id under a microscope.
I had ordered Dino X before reading and it should arrive tommorow. I just want it on standby if all else fails.

I have an observation in my tank that no one has brought up in this thread (unless i forgot reading it or for some reason). My dinos started a while back in light proportion so i agree that Dinos is likely in all our tanks and only become a problem when nutrients play a role. For me they started to show up when my phosphates reached low levels .04 and less now my latest readins were of 0 PO4 and i have not changed my GFO in 2 months.
As my Dinos get worse it is a a very slow gradual pase. It started out as a thin film on rocks and on corals that caused them to close up for a bit.

Now to my observation...... the Dinos in my tank grow in heavy numbers only in certain areas which are the sand floor. Only 2 spots on the sand floor to be percise. And they are about 12"X8" sections at most out of a 72"X18" foot print. There is no red flag i can see since these areas are not the same light intensities and not on either end as to say these two spots are not the darkest or the strogest lighting.So how is it that out of the whole floor my Dinos only show up in high visible numbers in these two spots? This is after heavy siphoning of all the sand floor and blasting the entire tank and i dont use a turkey baster to do it.... I use a Koralia 1500 and take it blasting all areas of the tank. I try and get the Dinos in the water column to get caught in my filter sock. I also brush the rock off with a tooth brush as well.
After all that Dinos is visible a bit at the end of the day then starts to be more visible as the days go on. Any thought why the high consentrations would be in the same areas time after time? This has repeated about 4 times now. Anyone else experience this? I can't be the only one unless i have something wierd going on.
Definitely Dinos, the signs are all there, stringy brown slime , bubbles, and it has the tether ball motion under the microscope.

My dinos look just like yours. We need to get rid of this crappp

 

[Quiet_Ivy]

I'm guessing your flow pattern too. Dinos are attracted to eachother, and they make cysts which remain in the sandbed to start the problem in the same place.

Dinos and unintentional super low nutrients go together like peanut butter and jelly. They are mixotrophic, can get nutrients from both photosynthesis and by consuming bacteria, etc, so they are one of the few organisms that can survive in severely oligotrophic water.

UV: dinos are only in the water column at night. Is your brute can method just trying to avoid a water change? I don't think adding the dead dino soup back to your tank is a good idea at all. Ostreopsis is one of the more toxic strains and killing massive amounts of O ovata off at once is how I lost all my fish and inverts. I think Cal_stir used UV and peroxide, check the other thread for confirmation. I wouldn't use peroxide and definitely not dino X, until you've tried some of the less dangerous methods.

Other things to try:
buy a couple of packs of live copepods. benthic if you can find them
raise pH (assuming a doser)
add carbon if you see any toxicity effects like dead snails, angry corals
(dirty method)
feed heavily, especially phyto
stop water changes, remove phosphate media, reduce skimming
add a fish if you have room
dose nitrate
couple of people on the other thread had success when they removed their sandbed. pretty drastic.

hth
ivy

 

[Quiet_Ivy]

My dinos look just like yours. We need to get rid of this crappp

I'm still not totally convinced you have dinos. Your nitrate is high..what's your phosphate?

ivy

 

[Fish Keeper82]

I'm guessing your flow pattern too. Dinos are attracted to eachother, and they make cysts which remain in the sandbed to start the problem in the same place.

Dinos and unintentional super low nutrients go together like peanut butter and jelly. They are mixotrophic, can get nutrients from both photosynthesis and by consuming bacteria, etc, so they are one of the few organisms that can survive in severely oligotrophic water.

UV: dinos are only in the water column at night. Is your brute can method just trying to avoid a water change?
I wouldn't use peroxide and definitely not dino X, until you've tried some of the less dangerous methods.
ivy

Yes trying to avoid a WC so i dont introduce trace elements and not lowering PO4 and nitrates that I've recently started to introduce by heavier feeding.
Ive read that the Ostreopsis are toxic but i have not lost any snails so its hard to say if my strain is just not very toxic IDK. I assume its not because Dinos has been in my tank for about 6 months now and maybe longer i was just confusing it with diatoms and Cyano since it was present in low numbers.

The Dino X is my last resort, i just have it on hand if i need it. Belive me after reading all 900+ posts in this tread im not one to do something drastic first.
Gonna try the dirty water a bit since my tank has stopped producing algae on the glass this week and alge growing on rocks is minimal. So in light of that I Fear Dinos is about to get worse. At the moment it just stays the same and its been this way for a month or so in terms of the now heavier numbers in the sand bed. If it is due to flow, I won't mess with it because I'd prefer them in the sand rather than on my corals.

I know Dinos are only in the water column at night , but if i siphon all visable Dinos at my peek lighting schedule in theory i should have a great deal of my Dinos out of the tank. And im mainly curious if i UV the heck out of them what their numbers will look like before and after under a microscope and if i can catch them with a 5 micron filter after dead. I am going to see what kind of response i get with a Water change first. If they come back quickly in big numbers I'm going to try my UV and place back in tank. But thanks to your comments ill run it through heavy BRS carbon first. I have read Dinos are most toxic after death. :blown: .

 

[seamonster124]

I've mostly seen dinos in sps tanks with vigorous nutrient reduction. You might be a good candidate to try raising your phosphates/nitrate a tiny bit to see if you can get other algae to wipe out your dinos for you. Dinos are not competitive at high nutrient levels.

Is it possible I caused dianos to appear just a few days after quadrupling the lights on my chaeto? The chaeto tripled in a matter of days, then dinos showed up.

 

[thegrinch620]

Hi All,

Just wanted to try and keep this thread alive as it is a brilliant source of info for this vile problem! I started to get Dinos in a bad way last Wed (8 days ago) although I suspect I have had them for a lot longer. I always had a white/grey covering, hard to explain over my rock, looked like white Dinos a little and would just brush off. Tank is 225 litre + sump using dry Pukani Rock and Red Sea Coral Pro.

I recently went to get married in cuba for 3 weeks so my nitrates spiked, I don't test for everything so this may not be much use to everyone but my ammonia and nitrites were 0 but nitrates 20+. I started to do 40L water changes daily to try and combat this and low and behold they flared up!

Fortunately I managed to identify them sharpish (I think) as Dinos and scoured the web, came across this and read it from end to end. As I don't have any corals (just a pair of Clarkii Picasso's and an angel which I suspect has been mis-sold as an Asfer so will have to give up at some point) I dove straight on the H2O2 method. Lights out for 3 days (not a blackout) and dosing 1ml per 10G of 6% (yes I know this is higher than most use).

Today, the water has never looked clearer believe it or not. The white/grey covering on the rocks has gone pretty much and it is just the sand bed that has a stubborn patch on it. Lights are back on in the afternoon until the morning and I cant see any bubbles. I don't think I am done with this yet but I will keep dosing H2O2 for another week and see what happens.

I put a filter sock in which I am cleaning every day/other day, and I am trying to skim wet although it is hard as the filter sock plays with my skimmer (BM Curve 5).

A couple of things I have/will be changing:
1. My salt - I am sure it is amazing but I do not keep corals and I think the excess nutrients haven't helped, I will be going to IO normal and trying that. Also the Red Sea seems to be a bit cloudy in my tank and it always looks like there is small bits of sediment in there (seen other articles claiming the same, wont bring that up here).
2. Changed out everything on my RODI unit, it was still producing 0 TDS but I read somewhere that they can still leach out silicate which some believe make the problem worse. Havent tested for silicate as I read mixed reviews on their accuracy unless you send a sample to triton so just thought I would change it out.

I also have a new lamp for my UV which I will be changing at the weekend.

Apologies I havent shared my PH/Alk etc as I haven't tested them for a while but I will keep posting over the next few weeks and let you know how I got on.

I think I have a decent (if that's possible!) variant of the Dinos as none of my snails have died.

Bloody spring in the UK - typical that's when most seem to get them!

If anyone has any questions just ask, too many people just follow threads but don't add their own experiences when their problems are cured.

Cheers

Ryan

 

[taricha]

Dinos with no corals. Interesting. Some people had wondered if it was possible.
It means you have a lot more options available to you than most.

Also if you are already doing peroxide, you can target dose the H2O2. Kill the flow for a few minutes and dose the area. You might find It allows you get a stronger effect without upping the amount.