Dinoflagellates housing Cyanobacteria

[acrylic_300]

I've been battling dinos for about 3 years now. They crashed my tank 2 years ago killing nearly everything. The next couple of years were spent watching the tank slowly decline...the last year letting the glass grow over and topping it off but not looking inside much.

I cleaned it up about a month ago and decided to give it one more shot. The dinos are still hanging around but I've nearly destroyed them all. Kalk, Peroxide, lights out etc...

On the topic of dinoflagellates, every time someone refers to Julian Sprung I cringe because "let it run it's course" just isn't going to happen with my situation. However, I did pick up a book of his in the pet store today and flipped to Dinoflagellates and about half way down the page read that they can house cyanobacteria. It also mentioned to raise redox potential for a cure. Then I flipped to cyanobacteria and raising Alk was a cure. Makes me wonder why so many people quote him as saying "let it run its course".

My question is...could this be why my Greenish-Brown dinos eventually turned into a red stringy blanket of death? or why so many people have trouble telling the two apart (cyano and dino). Specifically red slime and Dinos.

Could the Dinoflagellates be housing Red Slime Bacteria?

I would appreciate any information on it. I don't own the book (it was the lfs owner's personal book) it was vague anyway.

All I could find on the web was this:

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/protista/dinoflagmm.html It states:

"In some [dinoflagellates], the crests may be hollow and house cyanobacteria which provide fixed nitrogen to the host. This is most common in nitrogen-poor waters".

From my own personal experience I would say that this may have happened in my tank.

 

[websiteworld]

Has tap water ever been used in this tank?

Sent from my EVO 3d using tapatalk

 

[Opcn]

This could be happening, in addition to fixed N I also seem to recall hearing that they farm cyano for the cobalamine as well, which is absolutely essential and in short supply. It does suggest how the lines between the two can be blurry but I don't think it changes the story any.

Did you ever add more live rock after the Dyno's took hold? I'd imagine that you are missing some key critter or another that would help keep it at bay, assuming that you are on top of your water chemistry.

 

[disc1]

I don't know that one causes the other so much as they are both fed by similar things so if you see one you sort of expect to see the other.

It's kind of like a picnic. You get flies, and you get ants. But the ants didn't cause the flies and the flies didn't cause the ants. They were both caused by the picnic.

 

[acrylic_300]

I don't know that one causes the other so much as they are both fed by similar things so if you see one you sort of expect to see the other.

It's kind of like a picnic. You get flies, and you get ants. But the ants didn't cause the flies and the flies didn't cause the ants. They were both caused by the picnic.

Dino's and Cyano would be more like the weeds that grow around the picnic area. Probably not there for the food as much as for the light.

I wasn't really looking for a cure or what causes it (I know where I received it from), but whether or not the two can form a symbiotic bond. It might help to understand more about it.

 

[disc1]

I doubt there is any symbiosis. They are competing for nutrients. Neither one has anything to offer the other.

 

[acrylic_300]

I doubt there is any symbiosis. They are competing for nutrients. Neither one has anything to offer the other.

How do you know this?

The point of the thread was to get some source information. Like I said, Julian Sprung and the source I listed above both say that Dinoflagellates can house Cyanobacteria. In low nitrogen environments no less.

I'm mostly going from information that I know from experience or have read from half way reliable sources.

Unless two things are exactly the same, one probably has something the other doesn't. Opcn already mentioned that they mine cyano for cobalamine.

 

[disc1]

.

 

[acrylic_300]

This could be happening, in addition to fixed N I also seem to recall hearing that they farm cyano for the cobalamine as well, which is absolutely essential and in short supply. It does suggest how the lines between the two can be blurry but I don't think it changes the story any.

Did you ever add more live rock after the Dyno's took hold? I'd imagine that you are missing some key critter or another that would help keep it at bay, assuming that you are on top of your water chemistry.

I will look into the Cobalamine info.

Actually, the dinos started on a rock that I bought at the LFS. Someone had tore their tank down and sold the rock back to the store.

I had been adding a live rock, small rubble or frags about every six months.

The dino's started out looking brown and bubbly forming a mat. Towards the end it was red and would sent out streams of snot that would break off and wrap around sps branches killing the branch and then taking the whole coral over with a reddish brown matt. All the while sending out more streams of red snot.


Before:


After:


Now:

 

[Opcn]

I doubt there is any symbiosis. They are competing for nutrients. Neither one has anything to offer the other.

Mutualistic symbiosis is everywhere in the microbial world. We know that the cyano can offer the dyno's fixed N, I suspect that the dynos offer the Cyano additional protection and mobility that they otherwise lack. But really, it's crazy how much mutualism there is out there.