Divers die collecting "cool" rare fish

[cortez marine]

People,
The pursuit of deepwater wrasses in Vanuatu and deepwater ventralis anthias in Tonga has killed two divers these past few months.
I just got off the phone to my own guy in Tonga and he said the reason there was not so much alarm is because they were both Filipinos under contract and not locals with families.

The grieving families in the Philippines did not apparently count.
They were promised a severance pay...that never got sent....
They were also both pressured to dive deep for the coveted species in order to get paid.

Beautiful fish, dangerous...200 foot depths, and scandalous business.
There is no way to work 200 foot w/ conventional scuba and not kill divers.
The only press so far is this.
There will be more as I dig futher.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[chrissreef]

People don't believe sweat shops exist...

but IT support in india makes something like 1/20th what an IT person would make here... maybe less

and this hobby (aka irresponsible short term thinking capitalism imo) fuels dangerious behaviors by the niave for $0.05 to fuel our hobby "desires"

and the papparazi kills but we still purchase the magazines

Sadly, out of sight, out of mind for most "Americans" as it's the "American" way... just like Social Security and National Debt. Whether it's half a world away, or half a century away - "Americans" don't care unless it interferes with their "progress"

Welcome to the Global Warming debate... and the "it's a hoax" motto of the club that really means to say "we don't care"

 

[Buckeye ME]

Wow. Do you make bumber stickers too?

 

[old salty]

Two guys die trying to make a living and then it's all the fault of America? Nice way to throw in the global warming factor; as if one has anything to do with the other.


What makes you think these fish were destined for America? This is a world wide hobby. Maybe they were collecting fish to be sold in Japan, or Thailand, or Hong Kong, or Germany, or France, or Norway, or Bahrain.

Out of site, out of mind; this is human nature, not something restricted to Americans. If you have never been out of this country, you would have no idea what I am talking about.

 

[chrissreef]

"Two guys die trying to make a living and then it's all the fault of America?"

ah, you missed my point

"What makes you think these fish were destined for America? This is a world wide hobby. Maybe they were collecting fish to be sold in Japan, or Thailand, or Hong Kong, or Germany, or France, or Norway, or Bahrain."

true - but the US imports more than 90% of all ornamental fish/corals in the world according to MAC and other sources... which in itself places a lot of responsibility of the causes of collection practices.

"Out of site, out of mind; this is human nature, not something restricted to Americans. If you have never been out of this country, you would have no idea what I am talking about."

/sigh, your knowledge of the world and human behavior is extensive I see

"Nice way to throw in the global warming factor; as if one has anything to do with the other. "

If you look beyond the surface and silos you'll have your answer =)

 

[old salty]

"ah, you missed my point."


I certainly did. Could you please state it again.



"true - but the US imports more than 90% of all ornamental fish/corals in the world according to MAC and other sources... which in itself places a lot of responsibility of the causes of collection practices."


I agree. Rather than demand low prices like many hobbyists, I look for sustainable collection practices. It costs me more, but tends to be more beneficial in the long run.


"sigh, your knowledge of the world and human behavior is extensive I see"

It sure is. I've spent many years traveling abroad. The similarities between otherwise polar opposite cultures is sometimes fascinating. You really can't learn this stuff by reading about it.



"If you look beyond the surface and silos you'll have your answer =)"


You lost me here.

 

[Mark]

Folks, please cool it. If this turns into a flame fest or a political soapbox, we'll be forced to close the thread. And that would be regrettable, as the original poster has contributed a valid and important discussion to the responsible reefkeeping forum.

Instead of generating spite, how about we discuss buying practices that would encourage these livestock collectors to practice safer and more humane collecting.

 

[RumLad]

Why don't we just stop importing all species of tropical life, if they cannot be farm raised?
Surely there are enough species that the hobby would survive.
you never know, some clever sod might actually find it economical to provide aquacultered species in the vast marketplace that would develop.

I feel we can only blame ourselves for the devastation that this hobby wreaks. (and by "us", I mean all hobby members, not just those of us here in the godd old US of A)

 

[greenbean36191]

Why don't we just stop importing all species of tropical life, if they cannot be farm raised?

Well, from a conservation standpoint that's not exactly a smart move given the other industries that are competing for the same resources and the comparably lower values they put on them.

 

[chrissreef]

“I certainly did. Could you please state it again.”

Sure â€"œ the point was that industry demand (and often price wars) fueled by consumers continue to support unsafe behavior/practices. Be it coal mining/demand for coal, demand for pictures of celebrities, demand for guns (schools shootings vs aarp) etc. In my opinion, the consumer lacks responsibility in this country. It’s not an easy fix but if the price wars (among other things) stopped, safer equipment/practices might be used (or alternatives like the aquacultured livestock industry). Not quite related but... I work in the defense industry â€"œ and I found out this week that due to a price war, we found a loophole which is allowing my company to ship equipment to Iraq untested â€"œ yikes! A political issue is now brewing between camps of what’s “right” and what’s “profitably right” â€"œ neglecting soldier safety of course. I’m not sure the customer/government knows yet… but I wouldn’t be happy if I just spent $500m+!

“I agree. Rather than demand low prices like many hobbyists, I look for sustainable collection practices. It costs me more, but tends to be more beneficial in the long run.”

Excellent! I wish more did this =( I never know what to think of you because I never see “constructive” posts from you… just ones trying to refute things â€"œ which to me reminds me of tobacco companies claiming their products don’t cause cancer. Yet... you frequent the "responsible reefkeeping" forum =?

“It sure is. I've spent many years traveling abroad. The similarities between otherwise polar opposite cultures is sometimes fascinating. You really can't learn this stuff by reading about it.”

100% agree â€"œ in addition, one of my best friends over the years is now receiving her doctorate in psychology so it’s always intriguing to hear that angle vs sociological angles/experiences.

“You lost me here.”

Everything is related â€"œ you just need to break it down. It’s not a direct relation of course but you can definitely see some links. You may not think you and I are related or that what I do has any impact on you… but it may. Everything I do, whether it be typing here, or writing in magazines, volunteering in public organizations or having my aquarium featured in a book you may have read â€"œ it’s all impactful and related in some way. Heck, windmills in another state are powering this PC right now which may/may not impact CO2 and Nitrous oxide in the atmosphere and supports a technology/engineer in another state. Small â€"œ but it’s there. This is why I want everyone to recycle, support renewable resources, be responsible etc.

Ttyl!

 

[chrissreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11577186#post11577186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Well, from a conservation standpoint that's not exactly a smart move given the other industries that are competing for the same resources and the comparably lower values they put on them.

True =) I'm still a believer in some certificate/regulation program is needed though... I believe there's too much waste/replace in this industry.

My local club had a great presentation from secore.org this week. They're "thinkin" about trying to reintroduce elkhorn corals they've been raising into the caribbean since 90-95% of the coral has died in the last 10-15 yrs. Personally, I think distributing frags is a better idea until temperatures/whatever is causing issues in the sea to settle down. I'm not so sure their current ~3k frags will survive/make much difference in the sea... but I could be wrong. Tough call imo!

 

[RumLad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11577186#post11577186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Well, from a conservation standpoint that's not exactly a smart move given the other industries that are competing for the same resources and the comparably lower values they put on them.

I really wasn't aware of other industries that covet the deep water wrasses and anthias etc.. that we display in our tanks.

Some shellfish, a seaweed or three, but what other tropical marine life are valued by other industries?

 

[greenbean36191]

Live rock, coral, fish, sea stars, urchins, snails, sponges, etc. Most of what we collect is collected by other industries like the curio, food, traditional medicine, and construction industries too. There's no shortage of demand for reef life regardless of what the hobby does.

 

[MiddletonMark]

Thanks for posting that story, Steve.

Diving to those depths, multiple times a day .... while being encouraged to violate most safe diving rules [if even let on about the inherent dangers] ---- that's scary.

The whole circumstances of the guys [working internationally] nevermind the economics of their position ... well, I know that I don't want to contribute to that `demand'. I'm sure their bosses reward those who can bring back deep fish; no OSHA or conscience seems to be in effect caring if these guys live a long life.

I can't speak for others, but I don't want to encourage any exploitative practices - and figuring what it would cost to safely collect these fish .... I'm betting most of us would happily pass on them if that was all that is available.

But given this is so far out of sight, most hobbyists just have no clue when the LFS gets some great Anthias or Wrasse or ___ just how they are collected.




Are there any good lists around of what species are collected from deep water?
Are there specific species that are only collected deep?

I'd sure like to know that, but sadly lack the resources to go check out all the Pacific reefs personally

But without knowing which species only really come from there [or just about always do], it's hard to be sure I'm not sending some guy to 150' without consulting dive tables/computers or following safe practices. That's not a happy thought.

 

[cortez marine]

Mark
The Cook Islands has an exporter w/ Hawaii based diver intel who knows the dynamics of deep diving on himself and the fish better then most anyone in the South Pacific.
He is probably the one who can bring in the rarer stuff from the depths better than anyone.
I myself have boycotted deep fish as a matter of import policy as a wholesaler for decades waiting for it to become an issue that could finally gain traction.
If anyone wants a ventralis, see about the Cooks as a source.
By boycotting them in the other islands, you are doing the divers a favor!
Flashing tile gobies, purple tile gobies and baby clown triggers are the main fish in the Philippines that kill divers.
Steve

 

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11582978#post11582978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
I myself have boycotted deep fish as a matter of import policy as a wholesaler for decades waiting for it to become an issue that could finally gain traction.

You brought in and sold Tongan ventrailis and other deep water fish at the last wholesaler you worked for.

 

[cortez marine]

Do you mean the 100 foot ventralis that you bought from the company I got laid off from ?
The small numbers they found in the "shallows" back in that time perhaps gave the clue that they were more abundant in the deep.
No one was sent for them...the divers just found a few .
Steve

 

[cortez marine]

Plus..........
The quality is terrible on Tongan ventralis as the air bladders were often ruptured , releasing the air pressure...tearing tissue internally and causing the fish to develop problems later and stop eating.
Badly decompressed fish do poorly despite marketed as coveted species .
Dealers often sell them quickly and dont often see the continued downward spiral of the fish.
Steve
PS
The lack of ventralis on some exporters lists shows the lack of pressuring the divers to collect them. Some Tongan shippers have none at all.

 

[MiddletonMark]

I'm happy to hear that there are people doing things `the right way'. Decompression complications have to be a terrible way to die, nevermind an ocean away from one's family and home.

Nevermind the fish also need decompression - it seems [IMO] like more rationally collected fish tend to survive/ship better.

The only way to change things in a fundamental sense is to be giving our dollars to the guys who are collecting responsibly [in human, and reef-ecology terms].

If there's profit in doing things better/safer, people will be eager to jump that bandwagon. If there's no profit in it [nor demand], we won't see positive changes.

 

[cortez marine]

dark secrets

dark secrets

it seems [IMO] like more rationally collected fish tend to survive/ship better.

One of the dark secrets of the trade is how many species are ruined thru improper or no decompression.
From Hawaiian potters angels, to Philippine yellow angels, bubble-eye passer angels, pictilis anthias and most of the worlds genicanthus...popping and rupturing the air bladders adds serious ...generally unknown issues to the equation of what makes fish bad.

Many Asian fish enjoy the double whammy of poison and non decompression...nice.
Steve