DIY LEDs - The write-up

[Jay03GT]

I'd like to thank everyone that has contributed so much knowledge on this subject. I built my own setup and have been running it for a week now and just love it.

I was reading back in the thread (alot, lol) where someone (kcress I believe) stated that it is bad to run too many of the meanwell 60-48 drivers because of the load they place on the house electric circuit when they recharge their capacitors. Is there any way around this issue, perhaps using a UPS? A UPS might be a bad idea, I really don't know.

Here is my issue. I have many smaller tanks setup that I'd like to switch over to LED. But I'd end up with a bunch of drivers. Or is there another option out there for drivers other than meanwell that I haven't found?

 

[TheFishMan65]

If the tanks are close perhaps use the HLG series.

If the ELNs are on separate circuits then the house is safe from the load issues as I understand it. But the feeder lines might haave problems, but I doubt it.

 

[boxer385]

Looks like I will have to build a hood for these lights, so if I go too high it might look a little silly. I do have 9' ceilings and this tank and stand is big so, that will help (215 gallon so 72"x18"-24"x30" with another 36" of height for the stand).

How high off the tank would you be thinking? Also how many LEDs? I was thinking around 72 with 50/50 white/blue count, but am very willing to change because I know very little about LEDs and lighting in general.[/QUOTE

I'm planning on purchasing two Chinese fixtures 100x3w Bridgelux Leds with
60 optic for a system that is 60x36x27. Would two cover my system? and would 3 be an overkill. My system is SPS dominate with Clams

 

[Garage1217]

I'd like to thank everyone that has contributed so much knowledge on this subject. I built my own setup and have been running it for a week now and just love it.

I was reading back in the thread (alot, lol) where someone (kcress I believe) stated that it is bad to run too many of the meanwell 60-48 drivers because of the load they place on the house electric circuit when they recharge their capacitors. Is there any way around this issue, perhaps using a UPS? A UPS might be a bad idea, I really don't know.

Here is my issue. I have many smaller tanks setup that I'd like to switch over to LED. But I'd end up with a bunch of drivers. Or is there another option out there for drivers other than meanwell that I haven't found?

One thing I think he failed to realize is that the 48-d or p versions only charge / have inrush when first plugged in which is only for a tiny fraction of a second, not even enough for 10qty to stress or trip a 15a breaker. You should NOT turn them on and off by the AC plug, they should be turned off via the dimming circuit so the internals stay charged all the time. They use almost 0 power when 0 volts are on the dimming line and there is no inrush when they are brought back online via the dimming circuit. There are other technical reasons you should not run that many switching supplies at the same time but in my setup I have not detected any issues at all running a 10qty of them on 1 circuit.

Also if you try to turn them off by AC / the 120V line, when the main capacitor discharges, you get what looks like fireworks going off as all the leds flash really fast and bright for a split second.

I have 10 of them running 120 xr-e's and have had zero issues running test simulations daily for months. "tank is about to be filled finally" But of course, if you can do it with a lesser qty of power supplies, by all means you should! When I did my build, they did not have some of the newer power supplies so I used the best of what was available and still not sorry I did :wavehand:

 

[TheFishMan65]

Actually you could have problems. I believe it was kcress that stated they take "gulps of energy" when the voltage is high and no energy on the low part of the wave form. This is what they mean by power factor corrected or not in this case. This means that on the high part ot the waveform they could draw a lot of current, summed together it could be a problem.

In rush (a lot of power at start up) which is what Garage is discussing is a different issue. Garage don't you have the 0 you have split on 2 circuits? That would avoid the high current draw problem on the high voltage.

 

[brassmonkyballs]

he also said its not guaranteed to happen and might never happen just that its a possibility......based on ratings are RMS not the peaks and the peaks if everything was just right could add up to a huge number and cause a breaker trip if you had a bunch of them stacked up...not quite but its sorta like all the planets and stars need to be aligned

 

[TheFishMan65]

Thanks BMB, I forgot to mention there are no gurantees on the behavior.

 

[brassmonkyballs]

the potential can be completely avoided by simply putting them on separately timers and staggering the on time slightly.

Fish on a different note...have you tested your Apogee sensor calibration in sunlight? I have the electric version and adjusted for the 10% I'm getting 4.7% low reading in the sun using the Clear sky calculator...seems its should be a little tighter. Going to do more testing tomorrow if its clear.

 

[Garage1217]

Just to note, about 1500 hours of testings and the planets have failed to align lol Have not seen anything abnormal so IMO only, up to a 10qty is safe... in my setup anyways. But like I said, if you can use a lesser qty of power supplies, by all means DO SO as it is just common sense and easier to wire up!

If anyone gives a brassmonkeyball lol (sorry could not resist) my build thread and fixture are here... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1878249

 

[Garage1217]

the potential can be completely avoided by simply putting them on separately timers and staggering the on time slightly.

Fish on a different note...have you tested your Apogee sensor calibration in sunlight? I have the electric version and adjusted for the 10% I'm getting 4.7% low reading in the sun using the Clear sky calculator...seems its should be a little tighter. Going to do more testing tomorrow if its clear.

^ That only helps fix the large inrush, but again if you are using a dimmable ELN series, you should be turning them on / off by the dimming circuit and not the AC line. If this is done, there is no inrush problem anyways.

 

[TheFishMan65]

the potential can be completely avoided by simply putting them on separately timers and staggering the on time slightly

I disagree (we may need to wait for kcress) staggering the on times fixes the in rush current issues, but not the gulping which is from the ELNs not being power factor corrected. As I understand it they are 2 separate and distinct issues.

No I have not tried a calibration.

 

[brassmonkyballs]

actually you're right...he explained inrush and the gulping as 2 different issues and PFC solving the gulping....though I still don't get the gulping AFTER the capacitors are charged on initial startup

 

[TheFishMan65]

I think,
There is a rectifying circuit for the AC and lets say the rectified wave is 0 to 50 volts. So at power up you get 50 volts over a discharged cap and voila 60 amps. It does not take long to charge. Now turn on the LEDs the rectified wave starts to drop below 48 volts so the capacitor disharges to let us say 47 volts. Now the wave start to rise and presto it reaches 47 volts and starts to charge the capacior to 48 volts. So it drawing all the energy to recharge the cap between the rise to over 47 and the drop to below 48 volts. The rest of the time it is supplying the current to run the LED.

Overly simplified, but I think that is the idea.

 

[kcress]

Pretty much FishMan65 except you have the side wrong. You are describing the secondary low voltage side and the "gulping issue" is occurring on the primary high voltage side. +/-170V. That makes it all - much worst.

brassmonkyballs; The gulping is indeed not at all related to inrush. It's the cyclical recharging of the main capacitor that occurs 120 times a second as the energy used by the LEDs is replenished in a painfully short time each 8ms.




Garage1217; Part of the problem is that the harmonics that a bunch of non-PFC drivers generate is that they are insidious. They may do nothing. They may make some device in your house fail prematurely or work subtly wrong. That's why we can't really say X are okay and X+1 aren't.

A bigger question is why use a sack full when you can use only one or two more powerful units and save money, have PFC, save space, reduce inrush, reduce wiring, and run with higher efficiency?

I'm glad you're not seeing any issues. Just beware if your TV dies and it's only 2 years old, or your crappy CFL bulbs die even faster than they used to.

If you're thinking of having even more drivers (gaah!) consider replacing your big fixture herd of drivers with an HLG. Then use your ELNs in your little tanks. If you want to get rid of any(sell them) I'd take one or two for an ATS.

 

[brassmonkyballs]

That only helps fix the large inrush, but again if you are using a dimmable ELN series, you should be turning them on / off by the dimming circuit and not the AC line. If this is done, there is no inrush problem anyways.

No, I just run HLGs

If anyone gives a brassmonkeyball lol (sorry could not resist) my build thread and fixture are here... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1878249

Nice build by the way!

 

[Garage1217]

Pretty much FishMan65 except you have the side wrong. You are describing the secondary low voltage side and the "gulping issue" is occurring on the primary high voltage side. +/-170V. That makes it all - much worst.

brassmonkyballs; The gulping is indeed not at all related to inrush. It's the cyclical recharging of the main capacitor that occurs 120 times a second as the energy used by the LEDs is replenished in a painfully short time each 8ms.




Garage1217; Part of the problem is that the harmonics that a bunch of non-PFC drivers generate is that they are insidious. They may do nothing. They may make some device in your house fail prematurely or work subtly wrong. That's why we can't really say X are okay and X+1 aren't.

A bigger question is why use a sack full when you can use only one or two more powerful units and save money, have PFC, save space, reduce inrush, reduce wiring, and run with higher efficiency?

I'm glad you're not seeing any issues. Just beware if your TV dies and it's only 2 years old, or your crappy CFL bulbs die even faster than they used to.

If you're thinking of having even more drivers (gaah!) consider replacing your big fixture herd of drivers with an HLG. Then use your ELNs in your little tanks. If you want to get rid of any(sell them) I'd take one or two for an ATS.

I ain't skeeered at all :fun4: I picked up my eln drivers long before hlg drivers were available and for the same price per 5 elns as what a single hlg goes for so not worth my time taking anything apart. That and I am measuring pretty good efficiency, despite the 88% peak rating. Ran the numbers awhile back in another thread and despite not running them at WOT, I was above the manufacturers specs for efficiency Definitely not wanting more, 120 leds over my 225 is pretty blistering as is!!! But as stated, if you can go with less, that is more in many ways

One thing I would love to know though about the hlg's, are they potted in the case? Did meanwell end up screwing that one up? Hope not. That is my biggest issues with manufacturers these days. Potting their devices and basically building in a product lifespan via the capacitors so you will have to buy a replacement about a year after the warranty expires with no possibility of repair. I almost switched over mid build to another brand of dimmable power supply... forget the name at the moment but then found out they were potted just when I was about to send the funds. Killed the deal for me 100% and told them to kick rocks. Stayed with my eln's as I can repair them with ease if the time ever comes they need it.

From memory, the offending potted supplies were green in color. Engineering product life makes me ANGRY lol always build to stand the test of time, landfills are full enough!

 

[brassmonkyballs]

I ain't skeeered at all :fun4: I picked up my eln drivers long before hlg drivers were available and for the same price per 5 elns as what a single hlg goes for so not worth my time taking anything apart. That and I am measuring pretty good efficiency, despite the 88% peak rating. Ran the numbers awhile back in another thread and despite not running them at WOT, I was above the manufacturers specs for efficiency Definitely not wanting more, 120 leds over my 225 is pretty blistering as is!!! But as stated, if you can go with less, that is more in many ways

One thing I would love to know though about the hlg's, are they potted in the case? Did meanwell end up screwing that one up? Hope not. That is my biggest issues with manufacturers these days. Potting their devices and basically building in a product lifespan via the capacitors so you will have to buy a replacement about a year after the warranty expires with no possibility of repair. I almost switched over mid build to another brand of dimmable power supply... forget the name at the moment but then found out they were potted just when I was about to send the funds. Killed the deal for me 100% and told them to kick rocks. Stayed with my eln's as I can repair them with ease if the time ever comes they need it.

From memory, the offending potted supplies were green in color. Engineering product life makes me ANGRY lol always build to stand the test of time, landfills are full enough!

HLGs are 'suitable for wet locations' and when you remove the case its filled with foam. Didn't try to remove it. However they have a 5 year warranty and that cdiweb.com you mentioned in your build thread sells them much cheaper than anyone else....if they can get them. But the HLG 185 they list for $88. I paid $110

 

[007Bond]

Hi, fellows I'm trying to gather some info for a fixture build. Where is the best cree pricing now? Are the XP-E and XP-G still the popular leds.? How do you figure the locations of your xp-e / xp-g's on your heatsink? if your have a 2 to 1 ratio rb.to w. and say you have a 1 to 1 ratio cw. to nw. how would you figure locations for these combos? Is there some kind of a formula for this?Thanks for your input.
ps. Go Bears!

 

[brassmonkyballs]

No magic formula's.....plot it out on a spread sheet....read the thread, look at others builds, use some common sense, and use the search function here. To determine number of LEDs take length times width of your tank and divide by 16. Other than that it would be wise to educate yourself with the wealth of knowledge contained here prior to attempting a build.

 

[Frost3839]

LED help

LED help

Sorry to jump in on this post! Complete newbie to fourms! Please dont freak out on me! Im here to learn! I just have seen people freak out on newbies before. This is my first post ever. But now to the point. I am going to do a DIY led setup and doing my research. I have a 180g 72x24x24. What size heatsink should I use? I have seen so many diffrent ways. Do one long one like say 60iches? Or do a serouis of 3 x 18 as reefledlights.com suggest? What is your guys opnion? And where is the cheapest place to buy a heatsink? And how many led's should I do? from what I read about 150? with 3rb:1cw ratio. Looking for 18-20k. Please correct me if I am wrong! And does anyone have expiernce with FEDY leds? I want to go the best route! I am not trying to cheap out in any way! But I am also not rich (lol) need to save where I can. ANd FEDY leds are so much cheaper at 2.19 royal blue and 1.27 cool white. Down fall is you have to buy in set's of 100. But buying in sets of 100 is still cheaper than buying them off reefledlights.com and rapidled.com! For x144 xp-e off reefledlights.com with x144 60d optics comes to $691 without shipping. And it's only $433 for 200 leds (100xrb 100xcw) AND OPTICS AND SHIPPING! Link and Spec for FEDY http://www.ledfedy.com THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO READS THIS AND HELPS!!! Sorry for the newbie questions! But we are all in this cause we enjoy the same hobby!!! :hmm5: This post is already long enough lol. Next I will be asking about driver help and selection