DIY LEDs - The write-up

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Some of these industrial warehouse retros are pretty interesting, they are designed to replace 400-600w lights.

My prior employer has tens of thousands of lights on it's facility, and was in the process of retrofitting fixtures like that in three places - streetlights, conference rooms, and auditoriums. I spent a lot of time talking with the engineer that was leading the project, and got some prices and references on the fixtures they were using. In every case, either the color temp was wrong, or the LEDs used were low efficiency, or the fixture was just outrageously expensive.

The guy was fascinated by my homebrew stuff so we hit it off pretty well. :D
 
Logzor:

That is certainly an interesting application. However, like what seems like every other company, they are being so ridiculously shameless in their marketing claims, that I wouldn't be surprised if they permanently turn a lot of businesses off to the idea of using LEDs

According to the first link on the HID lights, http://www.ledsmagazine.com/products/20821 :

"Zhihai 180W LED high bay light can output 14,400 lumen, and with the support of our patented technology, it's able to work to both AC and DC without any adapter or transformer.Luminous decay in 10,000 hours is less than 10%."

"It's an ideal retrofit for 400W-600W HID lamp. Which can be used in many application and with many highlights. "

How on earth is it an ideal retroifit for 400w - 600w HID lamp?? The average run of the mill HPS lamp can easily crank out 50,000 lumens, as compared to this LED fixture's 14,400 lumens...

Yes even those LED fixtures in industrial lighting application have merit ie decent efficiency and long life, but gees its annoying when the company tries to market them on an advantage they clearly don't have ie total luminosity...
 
I just checked and Digikey has a 6 degree lens by Ledil, $2.10, but unclear if you need a holder. If you check out the data sheet it shows a 3 degree lens in the same family. If 100% is center light, then at +/- 5 degrees we are down to 25% and almost 0 at +/- 10 degrees. Of course Digikey does not carry the 3 degree. We might be talking ceiling here!

6 degree lens: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=711-1047-ND

I should add these are for Cree XR-E

Thanks for the heads up. I certainly would have liked to give those a shot if I wasn't already tied up with LED Supply. With their no refunds policy, I wasn't able to get my money back from the 6 degree lenses I bought from them, but they did give me store credit. So far I've gotten one recommendation on the Cree brand 8 degree lenses from candlepowerforums, but I'm going to wait until tomorrow to see if any other advice trickles in.
 
dimming

dimming

The REF pin on a buckpuck can supply 20mA at 5v. Each buckpuck's CTRL pin takes ~5mA at 0-5v DC. Based on those specs, you could run 4 buckpucks on one pot, using one buckpuck's REF pin to power the pot.

Or, you could use an external power supply (i.e. a 5v wall wart) and ground it to the LED- pin as shown in the datasheet. Then you could run as many buckpucks as you wanted from a single pot.

So on the external power option you would splice in all the led- wires to the neg on the wal wart and the wal wart pos+ to the pot and all the ctl wires from the buckpucks to the pot?

What would happen if you just connected all the ref to the pot and all the ctl to the pot? Would you get voltage crossover to the buckpucks? In my mind no since you have to have a loop for the voltage to travel on. Thanks for the help.
 
what keeps someone from running like 1000 of the $.30 led's? and just have a printed circuit board made for around $100? i can wire theses cheap leds with some resistors and a couple 12 volt power supplies, sure soldiering 1000 leds on a board would be ork but when you have a printed circuit board it ouldnt take that long, theres lots of companies on the net that make custom printed circuit boards for cheap, all they do is plate the whole board with metal, then print your circuit on it and then burn the rest of with acid....
 
im def not bashing but....... like mentioned above, to do a diy led setup on a 120 would be $1200-$1400, to do a diy mh/pc setup about $300, if i have to replace the bulbs every year, the led's still wont pay for themself within 5 years even with the energy saving factor, and also ith the leds, when you have 100 of them you are going to have burnouts etc, even though they are supposed to last forever i have had led's burn out, mh burns out i scre in a new one, led burns out, i have to brake off the epoxy's led star, unsolder, remount and solder a new one on, not to mention mass dissasembly, now on a small tank it does sound like a good idea, small compact size etc, it does sound like a fun diy project though......i love electrical projects, ive built led taillights etc for a few different cars now
 
im def not bashing but....... like mentioned above, to do a diy led setup on a 120 would be $1200-$1400, to do a diy mh/pc setup about $300, if i have to replace the bulbs every year, the led's still wont pay for themself within 5 years even with the energy saving factor, and also ith the leds, when you have 100 of them you are going to have burnouts etc, even though they are supposed to last forever i have had led's burn out, mh burns out i scre in a new one, led burns out, i have to brake off the epoxy's led star, unsolder, remount and solder a new one on, not to mention mass dissasembly, now on a small tank it does sound like a good idea, small compact size etc, it does sound like a fun diy project though......i love electrical projects, ive built led taillights etc for a few different cars now

I guess you could say there is always a risk with adopting a new technology. All I can say is that my HP LED array looks great. I will take the chance of burning out a few bulbs and if it lasts only 2 years I will be happy. Probably looking to upgrade to a larget tank anyway and will start over before they burn out. My advice is to do tons of research and go with your gut. Good luck and keep us posted with your progress. Hope the post helps with your decision.
 
im def not bashing but....... like mentioned above, to do a diy led setup on a 120 would be $1200-$1400, to do a diy mh/pc setup about $300, if i have to replace the bulbs every year, the led's still wont pay for themself within 5 years even with the energy saving factor, and also ith the leds, when you have 100 of them you are going to have burnouts etc, even though they are supposed to last forever i have had led's burn out, mh burns out i scre in a new one, led burns out, i have to brake off the epoxy's led star, unsolder, remount and solder a new one on, not to mention mass dissasembly, now on a small tank it does sound like a good idea, small compact size etc, it does sound like a fun diy project though......i love electrical projects, ive built led taillights etc for a few different cars now

of course there are pros and cons to everything. Some things you neglected to
mention though. LEDs don't project any heat into the tank. Also led bulbs don't Lose efficiency (well at least not for thousands of hours), color spectrum doesn't shift over time as quickly as other lights.
 
what keeps someone from running like 1000 of the $.30 led's? and just have a printed circuit board made for around $100?

It boils down to efficiency - that's a main reason why most people are doing this. A 30 cent LED is going to put out very little light per watt consumed, compared to a proper high-bin HP LED. So, even if you use a million of them to get the correct absolute output, your power bill will be much higher than using a smaller number of more efficient LEDs.


im def not bashing but....... like mentioned above, to do a diy led setup on a 120 would be $1200-$1400, to do a diy mh/pc setup about $300, if i have to replace the bulbs every year, the led's still wont pay for themself within 5 years even with the energy saving factor

I'll argue your cost math all day long if you'd like, but it's probably safer to just say: "to each his own." Some people see the benefit of DIY LEDs, other people don't. That's what makes life interesting. :) FWIW, most people who have calculated costs on these projects have determined that the payback will be between 2 and 3 years, though of course it'll vary considerably depending on the choices you make.

I can also speak from my own planning experience. Before I committed to LEDs, I had a DIY MH/T5 setup in mind for the 360g tank I'm building right now. Even if I give the LED equipment a really poor MTBF of 5 years, and assume the MH/T5 equipment will never fail (other than lamp replacement), the LED rig is still going to save me thousands of dollars over a 10 year lifespan. In fact, one of my goals for this 360g tank is to have a total cost to own over 10 years that's less than the 125g tank I tore down recently - and LEDs are the main feature that's letting me accomplish that. Thanks to LEDs, I'm going to have a 360g tank instead of another 125, on the same budget.

Though, of course, maybe I'm terribly wrong and my LED rig will kill all my corals and then fall to pieces in 6 months. If that happens, I'll cry for 5 minutes, then get over it, pick up, and move on with life. :D Though there are a few people over the 1-year mark with no problems, and I've had my own test rigs running for around 6 months without a single problem, so I'm really not worried. The typical LED rig is vastly overbuilt (in terms of cooling, for instance), and according to specs published by manufacturers, these things should last for a very long time. Experience with other types of LEDs burning out, or LEDs in commercial fixtures burning out, shouldn't be extrapolated to these DIY fixtures, without taking the specs of the components and the overall design into consideration.
 
im not saying the led's will fall apart, im just a young guy thats still in the "instant gratification phase" and dont really want to shell out $1400 for lighting right now for my 120, if i was going to spend that kind of money it would be on full automation controls, sure the electric bill will be lower BUT my wife pays half the power bill so............ let the mh's burn!! For all of the diy stuff on this site i quite possibly think that these led's are the coolest thread on here, just a little pricey for my diy setup, if i was building a 20 or 30 gallon tank i would use these leds in a heartbeat for the compact design, runs cool, quite and last a long time, for say a 300 gallon tank thats 31" deep, you would have to spend $2-$3000 on led stuff , for that kind of money i can, build the tank, stand, canopy, sump, diy mh's, diy calc reactor, diy skimmer, etc so i just cant justify it, but im a bargain shopper and an avid diy'er, isnt the definition of diy'ing being cheap and "making it work"?

also what are the hour ratings for the led's? i know its 1000's of hours but, at 365 days a year at 10 hours a day, thats 3650 hrs/yr, say 10,000 hours thats less than 3 years, i imagine the high output leds expectancy is far less than the standard low wattage led's due to the shear heat produced by them and current draw, sure 3 watts isnt alot of current but, thats 6-8 times the amount of a normal led
 
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The data sheet for the cree xre claims "Lumen maintenance of greater than 70% after
50,000 hours" At a 12 hr photoperiod that's a little over 11 years before you get to the 70% mark. Of course that's rated at 350 mA. At 500 or 700 that will probably lessen the life expectancy but i would guess you could still get 6 or 7 years at peak performance.

Yeah the upfront cost is a PITA, but in this hobby EVERY single time i decide to go cheap on the front end costs me 3x as much on the back end when i want to upgrade. And I ALWAYS end up wanting to upgrade.
 
of course there are pros and cons to everything. Some things you neglected to
mention though. LEDs don't project any heat into the tank. Also led bulbs don't Lose efficiency (well at least not for thousands of hours), color spectrum doesn't shift over time as quickly as other lights.

and thats a pretty bold statement saying the leds project no heat whatsoever, light=heat, any visible light emitted onto something will increase its tempreture, if it didnt emit any heat, why all of the heatsinks?? and fans?? Im sure the heat is greatly reduced as the leds are MUCH more efficient but they still produce heat, run one of those leds for a while and put your finger directly on the led and see if its warm............
 
for say a 300 gallon tank thats 31" deep, you would have to spend $2-$3000 on led stuff , for that kind of money i can, build the tank, stand, canopy, sump, diy mh's, diy calc reactor, diy skimmer, etc so i just cant justify it, but im a bargain shopper and an avid diy'er, isnt the definition of diy'ing being cheap and "making it work"?

Again, to each his own. It really depends on your definition of cheap and what you mean by being a bargain shopper. How far into the future are you accounting for? With my 360g build, I'm calculating every single cost based on a 10 year lifetime. If I can save $150 by buying a Mag 18 instead of a Reeflo Snapper, I'm not going to, because the Mag will cost a LOT more than $150 above what it costs to run the Snapper for 10 years. So, I'd buy the Snapper instead of the Mag, even though it's more money up front. Same with the LEDs. Spending an extra thousand bucks up front is PEANUTS compared to the savings over 10 years.

also what are the hour ratings for the led's?

It varies slightly from LED to LED, but most of the HP LEDs people are using are rated to drop to 70% output at 50k hours, run at 125c junction temp and 700mA drive current. Our typical fixtures are likely running at much cooler temps, so lifetime should be far longer (following the standard "double the lifetime for every 10 degrees C drop in temp" rule of thumb used for most electronic components.)

At 10 hours a day, 50k hours is almost 14 years. And that's just to drop to 70% output - all that means is that you turn the driver up to ~25% more current, and the output is the same - you've just lost a little of the efficiency advantage over other forms of lighting. Plus, as mentioned above, we're likely to see longer than 50k hours before we drop to 70% performance, because most of our fixtures are overcooled. 15 - 20 years is likely longer than any of our tanks are going to last, so that's plenty good enough for me.

And, given the rate of development, at that point, there will be far more efficient LEDs at dirt cheap prices, so if you do want to replace, it should be cheaper and more efficient. It's a win-win situation.

i imagine the high output leds expectancy is far less than the standard low wattage led's

It's typically the opposite. The HP LEDs we're using are designed with long lifetime in mind, even at high operating temps. It's a blatant feature in the marketing material used by the manufacturers in many cases, so clearly it's an important feature of these LEDs. Yes, they dissipate lots of heat for such a small package, but they have been carefully engineered to support proper thermal management (thermally conductive path from the junction to a large thermal pad on the bottom of the HP LED, which is soldered to a thermally conductive MCPCB which is bolted to a big heatsink.) Meanwhile, most "average" LEDs are designed with upfront economy in mind, and have little or NO thermal management capabilities designed into the product.

Granted, there's still the possibility that some LEDs or other components on a fixture will just outright fail over time, but that's a possibility with other types of lighting. Who here that's had fish tanks for 10+ years hasn't had an MH ballast fail here or there?

And, let's please not get hung up on cost. Even if LEDs cost more (long term and short term), I would still enthusiastically use them. They give a nearly infinite degree of control over intensity, color, position, angle, directionality, and spread of light. As a hobby community, we haven't even scratched the surface in terms of creatively using LEDs on fish tanks. People are already doing things with LEDs that you could never do with MH, and we're just getting started. I'm a control freak, and LEDs are satisfying that desire quite well.

In the end though, you have a point - DIY LEDs are certainly not for everyone. Some people build kit cars that can hit 60mph in 3 seconds. Other people drive a Honda. :) To each his own.
 
The data sheet for the cree xre claims "Lumen maintenance of greater than 70% after
50,000 hours" At a 12 hr photoperiod that's a little over 11 years before you get to the 70% mark. Of course that's rated at 350 mA. At 500 or 700 that will probably lessen the life expectancy but i would guess you could still get 6 or 7 years at peak performance.

Yeah the upfront cost is a PITA, but in this hobby EVERY single time i decide to go cheap on the front end costs me 3x as much on the back end when i want to upgrade. And I ALWAYS end up wanting to upgrade.

im alays wanting to upgrade also but, im trying keep this a hobby and not a job, when it feels like a job i tend to loose interest lol
 
and thats a pretty bold statement saying the leds project no heat whatsoever, light=heat, any visible light emitted onto something will increase its tempreture, if it didnt emit any heat, why all of the heatsinks?? and fans?? Im sure the heat is greatly reduced as the leds are MUCH more efficient but they still produce heat, run one of those leds for a while and put your finger directly on the led and see if its warm............

He may have had a poor choice in words but the intent was correct. If you compare fixtures of similar intensity, an LED fixture will put less heat into a system than an MH fixture.
 
Again, to each his own. It really depends on your definition of cheap and what you mean by being a bargain shopper. How far into the future are you accounting for? With my 360g build, I'm calculating every single cost based on a 10 year lifetime. If I can save $150 by buying a Mag 18 instead of a Reeflo Snapper, I'm not going to, because the Mag will cost a LOT more than $150 above what it costs to run the Snapper for 10 years. So, I'd buy the Snapper instead of the Mag, even though it's more money up front. Same with the LEDs. Spending an extra thousand bucks up front is PEANUTS compared to the savings over 10 years.



It varies slightly from LED to LED, but most of the HP LEDs people are using are rated to drop to 70% output at 50k hours, run at 125c junction temp and 700mA drive current. Our typical fixtures are likely running at much cooler temps, so lifetime should be far longer (following the standard "double the lifetime for every 10 degrees C drop in temp" rule of thumb used for most electronic components.)

At 10 hours a day, 50k hours is almost 14 years. And that's just to drop to 70% output - all that means is that you turn the driver up to ~25% more current, and the output is the same - you've just lost a little of the efficiency advantage over other forms of lighting. Plus, as mentioned above, we're likely to see longer than 50k hours before we drop to 70% performance, because most of our fixtures are overcooled. 15 - 20 years is likely longer than any of our tanks are going to last, so that's plenty good enough for me.

And, given the rate of development, at that point, there will be far more efficient LEDs at dirt cheap prices, so if you do want to replace, it should be cheaper and more efficient. It's a win-win situation.



It's typically the opposite. The HP LEDs we're using are designed with long lifetime in mind, even at high operating temps. It's a blatant feature in the marketing material used by the manufacturers in many cases, so clearly it's an important feature of these LEDs. Yes, they dissipate lots of heat for such a small package, but they have been carefully engineered to support proper thermal management (thermally conductive path from the junction to a large thermal pad on the bottom of the HP LED, which is soldered to a thermally conductive MCPCB which is bolted to a big heatsink.) Meanwhile, most "average" LEDs are designed with upfront economy in mind, and have little or NO thermal management capabilities designed into the product.

Granted, there's still the possibility that some LEDs or other components on a fixture will just outright fail over time, but that's a possibility with other types of lighting. Who here that's had fish tanks for 10+ years hasn't had an MH ballast fail here or there?

And, let's please not get hung up on cost. Even if LEDs cost more (long term and short term), I would still enthusiastically use them. They give a nearly infinite degree of control over intensity, color, position, angle, directionality, and spread of light. As a hobby community, we haven't even scratched the surface in terms of creatively using LEDs on fish tanks. People are already doing things with LEDs that you could never do with MH, and we're just getting started. I'm a control freak, and LEDs are satisfying that desire quite well.

In the end though, you have a point - DIY LEDs are certainly not for everyone. Some people build kit cars that can hit 60mph in 3 seconds. Other people drive a Honda. :) To each his own.

what keeps someone from using the 10-20 cent leds and just run a ton of them? i can wire those easily with a couple single layer pcb's and solder paste, all you would have to do is install some resistors that are about $5 for 100 of them on flea bay, say you need 100 of the h.o. leds, say i use 500 of the cheap ones, sure its more work but the cost savings is huge by not having to buy drivers, wierd power supplies, stars etc, the cheap led's can be bought with all the same wavelenghts and colors as the h.o.'s, with the cheap leds i might have $300 total in material versus the $1200 for the h.o.'s, sure using 500 leds ould be ALOT of soldiering, but with solder paste you could solder all of it in about 30 minutes, for those of you that dont kno about solder paste, its a paste containing flux and powdered solder which you apply in small dabs on the solder area and then bake the printed circuit board to melt and finish the solder joint, very easy to do, i made led taillights and had 2 pcb's made that each used 112 leds, and had both soldered and baked in 2 hours, pcb's cost me $35 each and leds were about $25, and resistors were $5 for a pack of 100, solder paste was $35, and to dim them just add a couple $2 reostats
 
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