If you didn't take the bottom off the top will wobble too because of the twist. Looking at the pictures it appears the front bottom board is bowed and causing the twist. I'd bet if you remove the bottom boards the top will lay flat.
DIY stand failed attempt
- Thread starter Kyle954
- Start date
If you didn't take the bottom off the top will wobble too because of the twist. Looking at the pictures it appears the front bottom board is bowed and causing the twist. I'd bet if you remove the bottom boards the top will lay flat.
Kyle954
New member
Oh okay, now I see what your talking about. I'll try that out and post some results
woodnaquanut
Active member
Interesting little dust up in stand building!
How in the world can anyone see a twisted stand in the pics provided? To actually see the twist you need tools. Luckily the tools are just two straight sticks. To the OP, google 'winding sticks'. These will help diagnose the problem.
Several replies said to take it apart and rebuild. Did anyone notice the OP said he used liquid nails?
If he did it right it won't come apart!!
First step is to find out if it's the stand or floor out of whack. Winding sticks will show if the top is coplanar or not. Flip the stand over and check the bottom too.
If the stand is warped it might be possible to fix it. I don't think you'll be able to get it apart so the fix would be with a hand plane. Not easy for an unskilled woodworker. You're in Florida, right? There are lots of old guy woodworkers (like me!) in Florida. Reach out to them (forums - 'Sawmill Creek' and 'Family Woodworking').
Of course you could always rebuilt it. Wood for the stand is probably the cheapest thing you'll ever purchase for a reef tank!
Let's say you got lucky and it's the floor not the stand. There you want to shim between the floor and stand. You want to take out any rocking and make it level front to back and side to side. Take your time and get it right. It's not really easy to fix this after the tank is wet!
Lastly, I to am concerned the problem goes away when to people push on it. Either the stand is flexing or the floor. What's actually happening here needs to be discovered and corrected.
Lastly (part 2 ), I think your stand is missing the green boards shown in the original 'rocketengineer' stand.
How in the world can anyone see a twisted stand in the pics provided? To actually see the twist you need tools. Luckily the tools are just two straight sticks. To the OP, google 'winding sticks'. These will help diagnose the problem.
Several replies said to take it apart and rebuild. Did anyone notice the OP said he used liquid nails?
If he did it right it won't come apart!!First step is to find out if it's the stand or floor out of whack. Winding sticks will show if the top is coplanar or not. Flip the stand over and check the bottom too.
If the stand is warped it might be possible to fix it. I don't think you'll be able to get it apart so the fix would be with a hand plane. Not easy for an unskilled woodworker. You're in Florida, right? There are lots of old guy woodworkers (like me!) in Florida. Reach out to them (forums - 'Sawmill Creek' and 'Family Woodworking').
Of course you could always rebuilt it. Wood for the stand is probably the cheapest thing you'll ever purchase for a reef tank!
Let's say you got lucky and it's the floor not the stand. There you want to shim between the floor and stand. You want to take out any rocking and make it level front to back and side to side. Take your time and get it right. It's not really easy to fix this after the tank is wet!
Lastly, I to am concerned the problem goes away when to people push on it. Either the stand is flexing or the floor. What's actually happening here needs to be discovered and corrected.
Lastly (part 2
), I think your stand is missing the green boards shown in the original 'rocketengineer' stand.
billdogg
Well-known member
Interesting little dust up in stand building!
How in the world can anyone see a twisted stand in the pics provided? To actually see the twist you need tools. Luckily the tools are just two straight sticks. To the OP, google 'winding sticks'. These will help diagnose the problem.
Several replies said to take it apart and rebuild. Did anyone notice the OP said he used liquid nails?
First step is to find out if it's the stand or floor out of whack. Winding sticks will show if the top is coplanar or not. Flip the stand over and check the bottom too.
If the stand is warped it might be possible to fix it. I don't think you'll be able to get it apart so the fix would be with a hand plane. Not easy for an unskilled woodworker. You're in Florida, right? There are lots of old guy woodworkers (like me!) in Florida. Reach out to them (forums - 'Sawmill Creek' and 'Family Woodworking').
Of course you could always rebuilt it. Wood for the stand is probably the cheapest thing you'll ever purchase for a reef tank!
Let's say you got lucky and it's the floor not the stand. There you want to shim between the floor and stand. You want to take out any rocking and make it level front to back and side to side. Take your time and get it right. It's not really easy to fix this after the tank is wet!
Lastly, I to am concerned the problem goes away when to people push on it. Either the stand is flexing or the floor. What's actually happening here needs to be discovered and corrected.
Lastly (part 2
Thanks for saving me 10 minutes of typing!
Kyle954
New member
I understand it is missing a lot of supports. As I've said a few times I stopped cutting/building the stand when I noticed the issue.
I think my woodworking career has started and ended here. Might as well buy a stand next time. Not worth guessing and hoping the stand will work.
I think my woodworking career has started and ended here. Might as well buy a stand next time. Not worth guessing and hoping the stand will work.
mcgyvr
New member
I can clearly see the stand is twisted in the second pic (its very clear if you look at hte angles of all the horizontal planes front face to back face) and even in the first one you can see a slight difference in the gap between the front and back top 2x8's..
IF you can push down on the close left corner while holding down the far right corner and are able to "rack" it back (second pic).. then just fix with the plywood sides as I stated above..
Even a properly placed loose 2x8 could be used as a lever to rack it back into position while you screw in the plywood on the sides if human weight alone isn't enough..
Looks like a fairly simple fix to me... But I'm mcgyvr
or just rebuild it.. thats only $20 or so in wood
IF you can push down on the close left corner while holding down the far right corner and are able to "rack" it back (second pic).. then just fix with the plywood sides as I stated above..
Even a properly placed loose 2x8 could be used as a lever to rack it back into position while you screw in the plywood on the sides if human weight alone isn't enough..
Looks like a fairly simple fix to me... But I'm mcgyvr
or just rebuild it.. thats only $20 or so in wood
mcgyvr
New member
no man.. thats a fine job for a "newbie".. don't let the "worlds gonna enders" get you down.. simply fix (just a little elbow grease) don't worry.. carry on and you will be happy...
woodnaquanut
Active member
Looks like a fairly simple fix to me... But I'm mcgyvr
or just rebuild it.. thats only $20 or so in wood
I guess we have different opinions as to how much 'mcgyvr-ing' should be done on a stand! Forcing it into position will always be stressful.
@ the OP...
Don't give up now! Even if this stand is not fixable (stand 0.9B in the computer world), you've learned lots. Take a bit of time to analyze the errors and apply this knowledge to stand 1.0!
Flippers4pups
Home made abyss
My current stand build was slightly racked 1/16 of an inch and all my lumber was cut exactly to dimension using a electric miter saw. No biggy. My issue came from those imperfections in the lumber where the stand meets the tank. (Its a rimmed 125rr tank). You could slide a thin card stock under the stand and the tank in small spots. Me being a perfectionist, I clear epoxied the surface with self leveling epoxy, with the stand level. It removed those gaps. Now its just level the stand to the floor. Problem solved.
I have made many DIY lumber stands, but this was my first six footer. So, I went the extra mile to insure perfection.
IMO, anything at or less than 1/16 of an inch deflection is okay. More than that should be corrected.
I have made many DIY lumber stands, but this was my first six footer. So, I went the extra mile to insure perfection.
IMO, anything at or less than 1/16 of an inch deflection is okay. More than that should be corrected.
mcgyvr
New member
yes we do..
its a wood stand not the Nasa spaceship..
He could even just shim between the 2x8's and the top ply when he adds that then just shim up the floating corners at the ground and move on.. Just get the tank to sit on there flush/level without its corners floating IMO..
I bought my 120G 72"L) tank used (listed as rimless) and the idiot just removed the top brace from a regular tank.. When I got there to check it out it was still full of water/fish and the front/back panes bowed out easily 2" compared to the ends.. Tanks are fairly tough..
rwb500
Active member
I put high quality 3/4 ply on top of all of my stands. this should fix it right up. You might have to find a way to hold it true and then glue and screw the plywood while it is held in correct alignment. If you can get it flat and correct in all dimensions without a load on it, it will be fine.
Flippers4pups
Home made abyss
Yes, most tanks are capable of handling small amounts of stress. Figure most floors are not perfectly flat and will settle with the weight of a tank. That's why its important to insure that the tank sits flat to the stand and that the stand is leveled to level the tank. :hmm5:
uncleof6
Active member
Once more unto the breach... ...once more
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, and sounds like a duck ...it is a duck... Evaluating exactly why it is a duck, may take further investigation.
There is no such thing as purchasing a straight peice of lumber. That animal does not exist, off the shelf at any rate. Dimensioned lumber CAN be made straight, after you get it home/to shop. Cutting it in smaller chunks and working on each seperate piece gives better results.
You have your terms confused. In this type of stand construction, bow never goes up or down, bow is side to side. What goes up or down is the crook (also called spring,) and the crook always goes DOWN for the top rim and up for the bottom rim. If the crook goes down for the bottom rim, the stand rocks end to end. If the crook goes up for the top, the tank rocks end to end.
If the crook goes up with one board, and down for the other board, you end up with a general mess. Seems simple doesn't it.
***********************************************************
Well, in a perfect world perhaps, but in the real world, the crook will never be symetrical, (sperical, parabolic, elipictal.) It will usually resemble half of the curve for the formula x² . (more curved at one end than the other, there is a term for that, which I can't think of offhand.) which causes dimensional differences from one end to the other, when it comes to the uprights for the stand. If they are all the same length, it is not going to work out so well. Crook will also cause the stand to "spring" under load. (symetrical crook or non-symetrical crook, both 'coined' terms.)
A lot of the lumber from big box stores is really bad. Combining bow, warp (also called 'twist',) crook, and kink, all in the same stick. (2 x 4 doesn't show much cup, but 2 x 6 and above will start to show it.) A stick like this, by most anyones eye, will hit the junk heap. Sometimes however, it is not quite so obvious.
What causes the majority of issues with homebuilt stands is the crook. Crook is seldom mentioned, however. Crook causes the dip in the long axis under the tank, the hump along the long axis of the tank (rocks end to end.) If placed diagonally opposed, it causes the stand to rock diagonally (OP's stand,) it 'twists' the stand. See the warpped board example above.
Crook is seldom mentioned becuase it requires machinery to deal with it, and that moves it out of the realm of weekend warrior stand builders, and of course we would not want to do that... ...it is more fun to have more folks frustrated.. and hand planing is really piling it on; shims and foam can fix anything...
Crook: 2 x 6, Jointer; points down light pressure till it is perfectly flat...with one perfectly flat edge, the other edge can be flattened with a little deductive reasoning. Voila, you have a 'flat' 2 x 4" (or 2 x 5" depending on how much you take off) ...assemble ASAP before
evironmental conditions alter the 'flatness' again.
FYI most manufactured lumber stands, are actually 2 x 3": jointed 2 x 4's. Half inch takin off. The 2 x 3" is overkill, so the half inch taken off makes no difference at all.
RocketEngineer's design is very sound and solid, albeit overkill. However, for the weekend warrior stand builder, it is far easier and less frustrating to use sheet plywood and build a box that will, for standard sized tanks, be overkill as well. The OP's stand and hundreds of others throughout this forum, are excellent examples of how easy lumber stands are to build right ...in reality.
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Very well, crooked not bowed. Nevertheless, the stand needs to be fixed.
While I agree you will not find 100% perfect lumber and dimensional lumber is a better choice, if you select good lumber, you can make it damn near perfect or at least make it slightly wrong to make it right.
I disagree, however, that you should place the crook down on the top of a stand. The massive amount of weight of a tank will flatten out the crook making even contact all around and distribute the weight as designed by the tank manufacturer. Conversely, having the crook down like you suggested will leave the center span weaker and possibly not touching the bottom of the tank at all, or at least touching without pressure. This would put the weight of the tank solely on the ends and could possibly lead to a failure in the middle of the tank. Obviously if the tank is rocking you should plane or sand out the hump.
Also, let me add... As far as seeing that the stand is twisted, analyze the right angles and it should be clear as day. Im not sure why anyone is having difficulty seeing this. Furthermore, the op has asked for help and the only way 'we' can diagnose or hypothesize the problem is to analyze the pictures. I'll say it again, it "appears" the bottom board is crooked and possibly bowed resulting in the twist. So that is where I would start my investigation. Furthermore, wood glue is not impossible to separate. Some persuasion and maybe some help from a oscillating multi tool, it can be done.
While I agree you will not find 100% perfect lumber and dimensional lumber is a better choice, if you select good lumber, you can make it damn near perfect or at least make it slightly wrong to make it right.
I disagree, however, that you should place the crook down on the top of a stand. The massive amount of weight of a tank will flatten out the crook making even contact all around and distribute the weight as designed by the tank manufacturer. Conversely, having the crook down like you suggested will leave the center span weaker and possibly not touching the bottom of the tank at all, or at least touching without pressure. This would put the weight of the tank solely on the ends and could possibly lead to a failure in the middle of the tank. Obviously if the tank is rocking you should plane or sand out the hump.
Also, let me add... As far as seeing that the stand is twisted, analyze the right angles and it should be clear as day. Im not sure why anyone is having difficulty seeing this. Furthermore, the op has asked for help and the only way 'we' can diagnose or hypothesize the problem is to analyze the pictures. I'll say it again, it "appears" the bottom board is crooked and possibly bowed resulting in the twist. So that is where I would start my investigation. Furthermore, wood glue is not impossible to separate. Some persuasion and maybe some help from a oscillating multi tool, it can be done.
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RockyProndoa
New member
Where in the world do you come up with all of this stuff?Once more unto the breach... ...once more
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, and sounds like a duck ...it is a duck... Evaluating exactly why it is a duck, may take further investigation.
There is no such thing as purchasing a straight peice of lumber. That animal does not exist, off the shelf at any rate. Dimensioned lumber CAN be made straight, after you get it home/to shop. Cutting it in smaller chunks and working on each seperate piece gives better results.
You have your terms confused. In this type of stand construction, bow never goes up or down, bow is side to side. What goes up or down is the crook (also called spring,) and the crook always goes DOWN for the top rim and up for the bottom rim. If the crook goes down for the bottom rim, the stand rocks end to end. If the crook goes up for the top, the tank rocks end to end.
If the crook goes up with one board, and down for the other board, you end up with a general mess. Seems simple doesn't it.
***********************************************************
Well, in a perfect world perhaps, but in the real world, the crook will never be symetrical, (sperical, parabolic, elipictal.) It will usually resemble half of the curve for the formula x² . (more curved at one end than the other, there is a term for that, which I can't think of offhand.) which causes dimensional differences from one end to the other, when it comes to the uprights for the stand. If they are all the same length, it is not going to work out so well. Crook will also cause the stand to "spring" under load. (symetrical crook or non-symetrical crook, both 'coined' terms.)
A lot of the lumber from big box stores is really bad. Combining bow, warp (also called 'twist',) crook, and kink, all in the same stick. (2 x 4 doesn't show much cup, but 2 x 6 and above will start to show it.) A stick like this, by most anyones eye, will hit the junk heap. Sometimes however, it is not quite so obvious.
What causes the majority of issues with homebuilt stands is the crook. Crook is seldom mentioned, however. Crook causes the dip in the long axis under the tank, the hump along the long axis of the tank (rocks end to end.) If placed diagonally opposed, it causes the stand to rock diagonally (OP's stand,) it 'twists' the stand. See the warpped board example above.
Crook is seldom mentioned becuase it requires machinery to deal with it, and that moves it out of the realm of weekend warrior stand builders, and of course we would not want to do that... ...it is more fun to have more folks frustrated.. and hand planing is really piling it on; shims and foam can fix anything...
Crook: 2 x 6, Jointer; points down light pressure till it is perfectly flat...with one perfectly flat edge, the other edge can be flattened with a little deductive reasoning. Voila, you have a 'flat' 2 x 4" (or 2 x 5" depending on how much you take off) ...assemble ASAP before
evironmental conditions alter the 'flatness' again.
FYI most manufactured lumber stands, are actually 2 x 3": jointed 2 x 4's. Half inch takin off. The 2 x 3" is overkill, so the half inch taken off makes no difference at all.
RocketEngineer's design is very sound and solid, albeit overkill. However, for the weekend warrior stand builder, it is far easier and less frustrating to use sheet plywood and build a box that will, for standard sized tanks, be overkill as well. The OP's stand and hundreds of others throughout this forum, are excellent examples of how easy lumber stands are to build right ...in reality.
Given "x" degree of woodworking skill is going to produce "x" degree of successful stand.
Whether you make it from dimensioned lumber or plywood has no bearing on the outcome - if I can't cut a straight line in plywood I'm right back in the same boat.
Typing this over and over again doesn't solve the OP's problems. You hate big box store lumber, we get that. Most people can't use that lumber to make a stand, we get that. Use plywood, the Holy Grail, as then you can alleviate the bow, crook, and warp of big box lumber. Unfortunately - the builder STILL needs to have the equipment to cut straight lines.
I respect your opinions and your knowledge on reefing immensely, bit I really think you are out in left field on this one.
woodnaquanut
Active member
Yes they can be. Don't try this at home (like the car commercials say, 'Professional driver on a closed course')...
woodnaquanut
Active member
Amen to that! It might be straight when you buy it but it won't be straight by the time you get home! Wood moves. Basic 2x construction lumber moves a lot.
BTW Uncle, nice pics of all the lumber defects!
Several have commented on the 'obvious' issues in the pics. There is so much distortion if the pic was taken with wide angle lens and off axis, well I wouldn't base my analysis on that.
Kyle954
New member
*update.... took it all the way apart. Took forever.
Excuse my lack of "wood talk" terms ..
I've found that when I put center braces for top/bottom frame without the end brace it's level...
When I screw the end brace on it then becomes off balance. I have put it together this time with about half as much play as I had before.
So does this mean my long runs (73") for length of tank are out of wack and when screwed together at the ends it shows?
Like I said please excuse my lack of proper terms
Excuse my lack of "wood talk" terms ..
I've found that when I put center braces for top/bottom frame without the end brace it's level...
When I screw the end brace on it then becomes off balance. I have put it together this time with about half as much play as I had before.
So does this mean my long runs (73") for length of tank are out of wack and when screwed together at the ends it shows?
Like I said please excuse my lack of proper terms
It could, the longer the piece of wood the greater the potential for error.
Let me ask you, how are you assembling it? You should be putting the rectangle (top and bottom) together separately on a flat surface and adjusting for any errors in the wood. Pilot drilling the holes are going to eliminate the wood from moving on you and using a square will help to insure it's "square". Make sure your cuts are perfect cleaning wood chips after each cut on a miter saw.
Then you should screw the uprights on the bottom and top and as stated before there should be a third upright on the inside of each corner.
Also, if you assemble the top and bottom as I suggested and it rocks on the floor, just look for the hump and sand it out until it sits flat.
I hope this helps.
Let me ask you, how are you assembling it? You should be putting the rectangle (top and bottom) together separately on a flat surface and adjusting for any errors in the wood. Pilot drilling the holes are going to eliminate the wood from moving on you and using a square will help to insure it's "square". Make sure your cuts are perfect cleaning wood chips after each cut on a miter saw.
Then you should screw the uprights on the bottom and top and as stated before there should be a third upright on the inside of each corner.
Also, if you assemble the top and bottom as I suggested and it rocks on the floor, just look for the hump and sand it out until it sits flat.
I hope this helps.
Kyle954
New member
thanks for the extended steps.
Yeah that's how I was assembling everything and like I said I got it now to where is is almost not rocking at all. I believe the small amount of wobble it has now is because of my floor
