DIY stand failed attempt

[CuzzA]

thanks for the extended steps.
Yeah that's how I was assembling everything and like I said I got it now to where is is almost not rocking at all. I believe the small amount of wobble it has now is because of my floor

You're welcome. Glad it worked out. I'd add a plywood top also, just to make sure the pressure is dispersed evenly and cut out lots of room for the bulkheads if your tank is drilled. Remember you have to get a wrench on that bulkhead and you don't want to be fighting the plywood.

Also, just a tip for any future woodworking projects... Don't glue anything the first go around. Put it together first to make sure everything fits nice, then take it apart and glue it back together. Yes it's extra work, but beats the hell out of trying to pull it apart after it was glued. If you have a Woodcraft store near you they can be extremely helpful and I recommend going in and talking to them. Especially for your doors and staining (use gel stain!) if you're going that route. You can actually bring your project in and complete it on their tools with their guidance.

Good luck on your tank.

 

[uncleof6]

I disagree, however, that you should place the crook down on the top of a stand. The massive amount of weight of a tank will flatten out the crook making even contact all around and distribute the weight as designed by the tank manufacturer. Conversely, having the crook down like you suggested will leave the center span weaker and possibly not touching the bottom of the tank at all, or at least touching without pressure. This would put the weight of the tank solely on the ends and could possibly lead to a failure in the middle of the tank. Obviously if the tank is rocking you should plane or sand out the hump.

They are not seeing how far the stand is out, because they simply don't want to, or prefer to debate this for another day and night...someone got told they were wrong, becasue they were/are, and that does not go over very well...

At any rate, you are ignoring Newton's Laws of Motion my friend. The force required to flatten out the crook, causes an equal and opposite force that goes right up through the tank. This put a great deal of stress on the seams and glass. That is the whole point of putting the crook down, if you don't care to deal with it, and can accept the results of the stand being built so. You put the crook up, with a rimless tank, and you will have glass and water all over the house... ...this is really just good common sense... Newton's Laws of Motion tell us exactly what will happen. If any are unfamiliar with these Laws of physics, do some research.

Rimmed tanks, only require support at the four corners. Support along the length is unnecesary. That has been covered on this forum hundreds of times as well as the rest of this. Any manufacturer that builds rimmed tanks will tell you the same thing. There is far more bad information about stand construction, and requirements for load bearing, than there is good information it seems. The information is all anecdotal and opinion...

 

[uncleof6]

Where in the world do you come up with all of this stuff?

Well, certainly not from forums... Most of this can be found at your local library... ...but school is a good place to start as well. Being in the hobby for 35 years helps a bit; building tanks for 20 years, helps a bit. Overall, it is life experience, logic, and common sense...

Unfortunately - the builder STILL needs to have the equipment to cut straight lines.

I respect your opinions and your knowledge on reefing immensely, bit I really think you are out in left field on this one.[/QUOTE]

What I have been saying, first off, is not an opinion...

Fortunately, HD has a saw that will cut a straight line. So I really don't see what the problem is ...still...

 

[CuzzA]

They are not seeing how far the stand is out, because they simply don't want to, or prefer to debate this for another day and night...someone got told they were wrong, becasue they were/are, and that does not go over very well...

Indeed.

At any rate, you are ignoring Newton's Laws of Motion my friend. The force required to flatten out the crook, causes an equal and opposite force that goes right up through the tank. This put a great deal of stress on the seams and glass. That is the whole point of putting the crook down, if you don't care to deal with it, and can accept the results of the stand being built so. You put the crook up, with a rimless tank, and you will have glass and water all over the house... ...this is really just good common sense... Newton's Laws of Motion tell us exactly what will happen. If any are unfamiliar with these Laws of physics, do some research.

Rimmed tanks, only require support at the four corners. Support along the length is unnecesary. That has been covered on this forum hundreds of times as well as the rest of this. Any manufacturer that builds rimmed tanks will tell you the same thing. There is far more bad information about stand construction, and requirements for load bearing, than there is good information it seems. The information is all anecdotal and opinion...

So you're telling me a tank with all of the water, sand and rock could essentially be supported by four pillars on all the corners and nothing else? I'm not an engineer but common sense tells me the bottom would fall right out. I'd like to see data from a tank manufacturer on this.

Let me clarify also by saying that I don't believe there should be some huge hump in the center supports creating a drastic pressure point. It should be planed or sanded to as flat as possible, but given the properties of pine any slight hump, undetectable by the naked eye, shouldn't pose any risk to the integrity of the tank as the weak pine would easily flex and eventually take on the shape it was forced into. Unlike having the crook down whereas you described the entire structure of the tank is supported only by the corners.

I'm always interested in learning new things, but with a business to run, a son to raise and a home and tank to maintain I won't be spending my free time reading at the library. And while I'm familiar with Newtons law of motion I won't be trying to extrapolate that information and try to correlate it to the structural properties of aquarium glass, silicone and wood. ;-)

 

[uncleof6]

Indeed.



So you're telling me a tank with all of the water, sand and rock could essentially be supported by four pillars on all the corners and nothing else? I'm not an engineer but common sense tells me the bottom would fall right out. I'd like to see data from a tank manufacturer on this.

Let me clarify also by saying that I don't believe there should be some huge hump in the center supports creating a drastic pressure point. It should be planed or sanded to as flat as possible, but given the properties of pine any slight hump, undetectable by the naked eye, shouldn't pose any risk to the integrity of the tank as the weak pine would easily flex and eventually take on the shape it was forced into. Unlike having the crook down whereas you described the entire structure of the tank is supported only by the corners.

I'm always interested in learning new things, but with a business to run, a son to raise and a home and tank to maintain I won't be spending my free time reading at the library. And while I'm familiar with Newtons law of motion I won't be trying to extrapolate that information and try to correlate it to the structural properties of aquarium glass, silicone and wood. ;-)

Data? I tell ya what: call the tank manufacturer of your choice and ask them. This of course has been done before, and that is where this information came from.

So you are not putting the crook down, rather planing off the 'hump' thus dealing with only half of the problem, ignoring the other half...clearly something wrong with that...

Obviously, the bottom does not fall right out. If it was going to fall right out, it would do so, even with the entire perimeter was supported, because the glass is raised up from the contact point with the stand. The entire bottom panel of the tank is supported by a ~1/4" lip of plastic...but of course we need rediculous overkill lumber stands to support the same weight that the glass is supporting on its own...that same plastic lip is the weak flimsy plastic trim, that most everyone considers to be so useless, that "sure take it off, it is not doing anything anyway..."

Libraries. Yes, most folks feel exactly the same. Seems no one wants to read a book anymore. Spend 10 seconds flipping through web pages, and repeat what they read. Of course, the only way to validate what it is that they read, is to read a book. It was folks that did spend the time reading, studying, learning a subject, that made it possible for others to spend 10 seconds flipping through the internet...the books came first...the real question is how can one sit and discuss/give advice concerning a topic, when they have not, or are not willing to learn the subject matter being discussed, yet they seem to have so many opinions about? Thus the signature of the internet: wrong becomes right, and right becomes wrong.

 

[CuzzA]

Data? I tell ya what: call the tank manufacturer of your choice and ask them. This of course has been done before, and that is where this information came from.

So you are not putting the crook down, rather planing off the 'hump' thus dealing with only half of the problem, ignoring the other half...clearly something wrong with that...

Obviously, the bottom does not fall right out. If it was going to fall right out, it would do so, even with the entire perimeter was supported, because the glass is raised up from the contact point with the stand. The entire bottom panel of the tank is supported by a ~1/4" lip of plastic...but of course we need rediculous overkill lumber stands to support the same weight that the glass is supporting on its own...that same plastic lip is the weak flimsy plastic trim, that most everyone considers to be so useless, that "sure take it off, it is not doing anything anyway..."

Libraries. Yes, most folks feel exactly the same. Seems no one wants to read a book anymore. Spend 10 seconds flipping through web pages, and repeat what they read. Of course, the only way to validate what it is that they read, is to read a book. It was folks that did spend the time reading, studying, learning a subject, that made it possible for others to spend 10 seconds flipping through the internet...the books came first...the real question is how can one sit and discuss/give advice concerning a topic, when they have not, or are not willing to learn the subject matter being discussed, yet they seem to have so many opinions about? Thus the signature of the internet: wrong becomes right, and right becomes wrong.

Yes, obviously the bottom is not going to fall right out. Crack, split, separate, fail... whatever you want to call it.

I agree with what you're saying. Many people don't read books anymore. I have a couple books I'm working on, recently finished Lone Survivor, which I highly recommend. But, I also believe we can gather accurate information from other sources. I'm certainly not going to haul my 1 1/2 year old to the public library and tell him to be quite. Ha.

Now back to our debate... I just spoke to John at Marineland and he said flat out no. I also called Aqueon and spoke to Rob and he was more specific and said anything over 5 feet should be supported at the corners and the centers both front and back, but ideally around the rim. He added that he personally would not design a stand without support all the way around the rim on anything bigger than 55 gallons.

We also discussed which way the crook goes and determined it is basically immaterial, because you would plane, sand or saw the crook facing up to be flat or hardwood shim the crook facing down.

So, I hate to break it to you, but you are respectfully wrong on this one.

 

[uncleof6]

Ok. At least you did some homework. I did leave out the 'suspension bridge' bit, dealing with the 'rim,' but have covered it before, so I am ok with being wrong...

As far as the crook issue goes, you need to read what I wrote carefully:

"The force required to flatten out the crook, causes an equal and opposite force that goes right up through the tank. This put a great deal of stress on the seams and glass. That is the whole point of putting the crook down, if you don't care to deal with it, and can accept the results of the stand being built so. You put the crook up, with a rimless tank, and you will have glass and water all over the house... ...this is really just good common sense..."

That was in direct response to the comment:

"I disagree, however, that you should place the crook down on the top of a stand. The massive amount of weight of a tank will flatten out the crook making even contact all around and distribute the weight as designed by the tank manufacturer."

Stands from manufacturers are dead flat, and built properly (though some would like to argue that.) If they do use dimensioned lumber, which is uncommon these days, that lumber is put through a bench jointer, before the thing is assembled. They insist, for warranty purposes, that their stands be used. Why? Because the stand is square, co-planer, and dead flat across the top, with no weight needed to straighten out the tank.

Most folks aren't even aware that there is a problem with this, and that is why threads like this get started and then go nuts...you may recall that very early on I stated straight out, what really needs to be done about the crook...

Incidentally, I know the folks at aqueon pretty well. It took a trip to their facilities several years back to settle a dispute over silicone...(MSDS not matching the advertising.)

 

[CuzzA]

I think we're both right on the crook issue, because either way we would make sure the top support is flat. ;-) And hopefully anyone who reads this discussion learned a thing or two.

 

[Arrgh]

Actually a perfectly straight 2x6 would instantly deflect in the center, putting stress on the ends anyways.
This could be counteracted by putting the crook up, but one has no easy way of knowing what the appropriate preload amount would be.

That makes it ideal to use construction techniques that make your box straight, only using short spans, and shimming between the floor and stand to keep it that way.

 

[rockslide123]

I have just started a 120 gal build and have the basic frame constructed with dimensional lumber. I found that it is impossible to get dimensional lumber that is straight enough to build a satisfactory stand so I came up with an easy way to straighten lumber if you have a table saw with a decent fence. Also, I have no really flat surfaces of sufficient size in my garage to work from so I had to come up with a way around that but my finished stand is within .02 flat and level. If anyone is interested i will start a thread in the DIY section on how to achieve this with (relatively) minimal tools (contractor table saw, miter saw calibrated to cut square) and no special skills. You should be able to get the frame built in a few hours.

It is hard for me to see how without at least these two tools you could get a really flat and level stand. I keep reading about people struggling with this and never see a clear explanation to help people get things square that don't have experience with wood working. Anyway, if there is interest let me know by replying to this thread thread and I'll document it.

By the way, full disclosure, I only do a woodworking project of any magnitude once every few years so I have no special skills. Its all just common sense so nothing tricky is involved. I have been a mechanical engineer for 25 years for whatever that's worth.

 

[uncleof6]

Actually a perfectly straight 2x6 would instantly deflect in the center, putting stress on the ends anyways.
This could be counteracted by putting the crook up, but one has no easy way of knowing what the appropriate preload amount would be.

That makes it ideal to use construction techniques that make your box straight, only using short spans, and shimming between the floor and stand to keep it that way.

Well, you are not wrong. But here again, physics says that the force up will equal the force down when the motion stops. Let's say it takes 350lbs to deflect the 2 x 6 down to straight, where the motion stops, due to an equal force up. That is 350lbs that has no business being transfered to a pressure vessel made of glass, that is designed to sit on a flat surface with just the weight of the tank alone. E.G. It takes "no" force to get the tank to sit flat on the stand. That is probably a bit unclear, but what it means is put the tank on the stand, and nothing moves. A stand that is built right won't move. The weight is transfered to the floor immediately. Of course, everything is going to deflect, but I think you get the idea.

The model of all of this is a structure made of cooked spaghetti noodles. The model for a steel stand is a structure made of cooked spaghetti noodles. Put weight on it, and it will deflect. 2 x 4, 2 x 6, 2 x 8, 2 x 12 etc. etc. Does not matter how straight or flat the edges are becasue it has somewhere to move to...

I wonder what sort of structure would not fit the model of the spaghetti noodles... that the force required to deflect it would exceed the weight of the full running tank, and would exceed the load capacity of the floor... e.g. the floor would have to move down...I wonder how such a structure would look.

 

[scottsdale454ss]

add some cross bracing once you fix the crooked issue

 

[CuzzA]

I have just started a 120 gal build and have the basic frame constructed with dimensional lumber. I found that it is impossible to get dimensional lumber that is straight enough to build a satisfactory stand so I came up with an easy way to straighten lumber if you have a table saw with a decent fence. Also, I have no really flat surfaces of sufficient size in my garage to work from so I had to come up with a way around that but my finished stand is within .02 flat and level. If anyone is interested i will start a thread in the DIY section on how to achieve this with (relatively) minimal tools (contractor table saw, miter saw calibrated to cut square) and no special skills. You should be able to get the frame built in a few hours.

It is hard for me to see how without at least these two tools you could get a really flat and level stand. I keep reading about people struggling with this and never see a clear explanation to help people get things square that don't have experience with wood working. Anyway, if there is interest let me know by replying to this thread thread and I'll document it.

By the way, full disclosure, I only do a woodworking project of any magnitude once every few years so I have no special skills. Its all just common sense so nothing tricky is involved. I have been a mechanical engineer for 25 years for whatever that's worth.

Yes, a table saw is how I created a flat surface on my build, but the average person does not own one, won't buy one just for a stand and unfortunately Home Depot and Lowes' saws rarely cut straight. So most people are left to deal with the naturally imperfect properties of wood. And typically resort to sanding and/or shimming.

 

[Arrgh]

I wonder what sort of structure would not fit the model of the spaghetti noodles... that the force required to deflect it would exceed the weight of the full running tank, and would exceed the load capacity of the floor... e.g. the floor would have to move down...I wonder how such a structure would look.

If one didn't need doors, a stand with walls made of 3/4" Baltic birch plywood (Or even pine) would be very strong. This type of box could be leveled just on the 4 corners.

Rather then having a 5 1/2" high joist (2x6), the "joist" is the full height of the stand, say 36" or whatever.

Actually now that I think of it, this technique is similar to most cheap aquarium stands made out of sheet goods. They just add doors to the front.

 

[DavidinGA]

Wow you'd think we're talking about building a particle reactor or something here lol

Its a wood stand with some screws. Shouldn't be this difficult.

Use straight lumber, measure twice cut once. Check work with a level and right angle. Fill tank with water.

 

[rockslide123]

Yes, a table saw is how I created a flat surface on my build, but the average person does not own one, won't buy one just for a stand and unfortunately Home Depot and Lowes' saws rarely cut straight. So most people are left to deal with the naturally imperfect properties of wood. And typically resort to sanding and/or shimming.

Agreed most people don't have a table saw let alone one that cuts straight. From my experience it is near impossible to build a stand that won;t have some kind of non-uniform surface without straightening the lumber first. I tried to select lumber and build without straightening and I had the same problems that started this thread. I had about 3/32 gap under the tank. This might be OK but as has been pointed out earlier it definitely would cause pretty large non-uniform loading of the tanks seams.

 

[rockslide123]

Wow you'd think we're talking about building a particle reactor or something here lol

Its a wood stand with some screws. Shouldn't be this difficult.

Use straight lumber, measure twice cut once. Check work with a level and right angle. Fill tank with water.

Spoken like a man that has never been called by a friend in the middle of the night to take livestock home until he can get a tank to replace the one that's leaking water on his carpet.
"use straight lumber" is easy to say but almost impossible to find. Its possible to get lucky and have a stand come out flat enough but I wouldn't count on it. Especially for the 200 gallon plus systems.

 

[DavidinGA]

Spoken like a man that has never been called by a friend in the middle of the night to take livestock home until he can get a tank to replace the one that's leaking water on his carpet.
"use straight lumber" is easy to say but almost impossible to find. Its possible to get lucky and have a stand come out flat enough but I wouldn't count on it. Especially for the 200 gallon plus systems.

I can't say I've ever had that phone call lol.


I did build my own stand for my 210gal setup. I remember it did take me forever at home Depot dismantling the giant pile of lumber out onto the floor as I searched for straight boards. I was appalled at the crap they sell...

 

[DaveMorris]

I work in the staging industry doing theatrical work for corporate conventions and trade shows. It always amazes me at how over built our stands are for our fish tanks. In fact, mine is way over built as well. We build platforms that hold cars, dancers, and yes, even elephants, using simple 1x2 frames. Yes that is 1" x 2" pine frames supporting a sheet of 3/4" to 7/8" ply. We need these things to be very lightweight to move into place very quickly with minimal work. If proper design is used, i.e. weight transfer down to the ground, it takes very little wood to support a great amount of weight. It would be interesting to show some pics of some of the platforms we make and see how many reef enthusiasts look at them and tell me it will never work.

Bottom line is there are certain principles of physics at work here in our stands and tanks and a lot of people seem to have different ways of interpreting how those laws of physics will apply.

 

[rockslide123]

I work in the staging industry doing theatrical work for corporate conventions and trade shows. It always amazes me at how over built our stands are for our fish tanks. In fact, mine is way over built as well. We build platforms that hold cars, dancers, and yes, even elephants, using simple 1x2 frames. Yes that is 1" x 2" pine frames supporting a sheet of 3/4" to 7/8" ply. We need these things to be very lightweight to move into place very quickly with minimal work. If proper design is used, i.e. weight transfer down to the ground, it takes very little wood to support a great amount of weight. It would be interesting to show some pics of some of the platforms we make and see how many reef enthusiasts look at them and tell me it will never work.

Bottom line is there are certain principles of physics at work here in our stands and tanks and a lot of people seem to have different ways of interpreting how those laws of physics will apply.