DIY: Steve's LED's module

[westmoorenerd]

can the statement about 25lm/w be backed up? or are you saying that because they look like your standard ebay HP 3W led. That's a serious gap, and will push me to go CREE for my 40Breeder

We can't prove anything since he's not giving data sheets, but some of the pictures he uses on his website for his LEDs are the same that some of the eBay LED sellers use. eBay LEDs also don't seems to give you the lm/w info, they just give you how many lumen they put out, which is typically around 70-80. 70-80lm/w would be half way decent, but since they just list it as lumen, we have to assume it's talking for a full 3w or whatever going through, so chop that down into a 1/3 and we're only talking 25 or so lm/w.

I've always been weary of people who won't give out more information about their product, very much like Orphek lighting...

 

[starmanres]

Can XR-E and XR-C LED's be combined on the same string?

 

[csarkar001]

everywhere i go on this forum, a fist-fight breaks out.

 

[westmoorenerd]

No fist fight, just pointing out facts. I don't believe anything unless I see the facts in black and white.

And yes, starmanres, you can, as far as I know, combine any sort of LED on the same string as long as they can operate on the same amount of current. The forward voltage might be different between the LED's so you'd have to vary how many LEDs are on the string to not exceed the max voltage of the power supply.

 

[longiotti]

I am bored and it is late so I will type.

I am bored and it is late so I will type.

I have requested a quote from steves LEDS and I personally can not wait to hear back from him. A few things that bother me about what is being said on this thread. I do not know steve or anything about him for one. all I know it is seems he is a diyer that has found a way to make something that is a great deal and wants to try and share that. I really don't see him retiring from this or trying to rip anyone off so I personally think it is wrong for people to bash on his product unless you have bought it, and tested it your self.
let me give you an example.
Solaris hoods. they had data sheets, facts, color charts the whole bit. where are they now? how much did they cost? they were a big company that told you what you wanted to hear and charged a lot for it. if there are no data sheets how can you talk down about his product. if corals are growing it seems to be working. I am just like everyone else that has 10 friends that reef and some have the same lights. filters etc. some corals to great in some tanks and some do not grow but stay alive. why is this? who freakin knows! why can a coral not do anything in a tank and then after 3 months it grows more in 2 weeks than the time you have had it?
people talking about efficiency with LEDS
all I know is I could be going from a hood that is using 900 watts down to steves set up that could be using 300. am I going to spend 3 or 4 times as much so that I can by leds so that my hood is maybe only using 250 watts instead of 300? so the rest is heat. it is still better then MH or T5 in my opinion.
people talk about the technical side of lights and what color they give off, when you buy a 5t hood, do you look at data sheets and put all that information down to get the exact color that you want for your tank, or do you see what other people are running and what works for them?
then 9 times out of 10 you will change it because it may be more pleasing to the eye or corals color up better.
if you really want to try these then buy them and try them out like I am. or at least set them up over your refugium and through a frag down there and see what happens. Do something besides bashing on something that you know nothing about. you trying to talk down about his product is silly.
talking about Porshes and Lesuxsisisis.
read any thread about MH bulbs and you will get 10 differnet opinions about the color of a 14K bulb, it is to blue, it is to yellow. where is the data sheet on that? when you get a bulb do you test it to make sure it is the right spectrum?
I am frustrated that LEDs got a bad wrap because companies trying to push them out to fast with out testing. I have a shop light that was supposed to last 50,000 hours. used it 5 months and half the LEDs don't work.
it didn't come with a so called data sheet but it said it would last that long. where does that get me?????? A light that is 50% brighter then when I bought it. people can put what ever they want on a data sheet. doesn't mean it is accurate.
sense we were talking about automobiles. everyone wants to know where he got his LEDs and the quality.
I by parts for my chevy from Napa. I buy parts that say napa on the sticker. Do you know where that part came from? most of the time it came from the same cast dies that chevy used to make the car. the die company sells them off over seas.
you trying to tell me that these LED companies over seas are not selling to more then one distributor? I am not saying they are exactly the same thing but they have got to be similar.
I know there are people on here that know a ton about LEDs and what it takes to set them up. All I am saying is test them first.
if you buy them, spend $400 and they burn out 6 months later and it is not user error and the manufacturer will not stand by the product then report it and try and save the next guy from getting ripped.
I have read a lot of threads about Stevesleds and this is the first one that had any kind of negative thing to say. and all that really was said is that they are not as efficient. and this coming from someone who is not even a customer. Everything that I have read about from customers that have bought them from steve has had nothing but good things to say
I am tired. time for bed.
go easy on me! :lolspin:

 

[longiotti]

there is no LED manufacturer out there which specifically produce LEDs for reef aquarium use since the market is very narrow and it is very expensive technology.

really do not want to start an argument here but no turkey basting company made a product for marine use either but that doesn't mean we didn't use them for spot feeding. if a company bought turkey basters in bulk. found they were safe for salt water, no steal parts no chemicals, etc and packages it as a spot feeder for corals and fish would that mean it is not for marine use?

If steve found Blue LEDs that are the right color then why can they not be for marine use?
I have seen threads for LED PAR38 can lights that are blue. people are using them on their tanks. the packaging does not say for marine use but they use it for that. if it works, that person buys 10,000 bulbs and resells them as marine leds how is that bad? what does it need to do to be qualified as marine use? it sounds like a word game to me.
ok now I am going to bed

 

[tahiriqbal]

I hope you had a good sleep . Your argument is unfair as comparing basic technology with a complicated one i.e. the use of turkey baster for feeding your corals which is common sense. We are talking about efficiency here and solid data to support steve's LEDs. If you want to use Steve's LEDs then by all mean do so and no one is stopping you but I talking from experience with types of LEDs and IME, they are no way near to what main stream LED manufacturers produce. It's like going to a super market and buying basic orange juice which may lack vital vitamins and comparing it with Tropicana pure premium juice which has been specifically formulated and have all necessary ingredients.

 

[westmoorenerd]

I like that comparison tahiriqbal.

 

[Rancherlee]

Just a few specs would be nice. I believe steve is just a fellow reefer trying to save other reefer money. If his LEDs are above 80lpw then they should be plenty good for MH replacement fixtures. MH is anywhere from 60-80lpw in my research into efficient lighting.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Can XR-E and XR-C LED's be combined on the same string?

Yes, given the right conditions. Any LEDs that can take the same drive current can be combined in any given string. So, for instance, if your driver provides 350mA, you can put XR-E, XP-G, Rebels, whatever on it. If your driver provides 1500mA, you better not be putting XR-E on it!

Just a few specs would be nice. I believe steve is just a fellow reefer trying to save other reefer money. If his LEDs are above 80lpw then they should be plenty good for MH replacement fixtures. MH is anywhere from 60-80lpw in my research into efficient lighting.

Honestly, even if a given LED has less efficiency than a given MH or T5 lamp, it still may be "better" over a fish tank because it is inherently more directional. With T5 and MH, a certain (significant) portion of the light will pretty much always be lost, given the typically used reflectors (even the good ones). Whereas, with LEDs, given typical build techniques, it's much easier to ensure that a larger percentage of the light is usable in your fish tank.

That said, using lumens/watt to compare an HP LED with an MH lamp is pretty meaningless, since the spectra will almost certainly be vastly different (even if the color appearance is the same to the human eye), and lumens is a unit that is highly dependent on spectrum. Hence, IMHO, lumens/watt is only really useful when comparing light sources with very similar spectra.

In reality, this whole thread is pretty much a meaningless argument, because we have no data. Surely a fixture can be built with these LEDs that will sustain beautiful corals - no one can deny that. I'm sure many people have done so, and I'm not trying to say that they are wrong or cast doubt on their results.

But, you can also build a fixture with normal output fluorescent lamps that will sustain beautiful corals! That doesn't mean it would be a "good" thing to do according to the typical reefers' selection criteria today. In the absence of data, IMHO, it's prudent and reasonable to assume the given product falls in line with the market as a whole, and given reasonable criteria, there's no such thing as a $2 LED that performs as well as a $7 LED. Going back to the car analogy, there's nothing wrong with a Toyota, or even a Lexus, but surely you can't compare either to a Ferrari. And, given the lack of data, we have no way of knowing if these LEDs are Lexuses or rusty old Kias. I'll repeat it for the third time - I'm not trying to bash, or even come across as negative, I'm just stating facts.

 

[longiotti]

I had a good sleep thank you, one of the points I was trying to make is that it has to be better then what I have. I feel that I have done a lot of reading and research on this and maybe I am just looking in the wrong place but I can not find good info or a thread on where to get the $7 leds? I see build threads about LEDs with big heat sinks but no links and no prices. I just think this is great where you can go to one place and get eveything you need.
if there is a build thread or info on how to build the most effecient led hood with prices for a 90 or 120 gallon not a nano tank that would be great.
here is my thought process tell me if this makes sense.

Steves Leds his pricing example says a 120 Gallon tank lighting is about $400

from some of the info I have gathered. getting better leds and making your own you are looking at about $1100 and you still have to find a hood or retro fit them? making sense?
pay more get better. I understand that.

BUT why would I not just go and by 4 Ecoray 60s for $1200? they are supposably very reliable and have very good light. they also include a inclosed hood, and they have data sheets to back up their light out put.

point being is someone has to be using similar LEDs that steve is using for their production or there would be no profit.

Also I dont' think this argument is useless. I think it brings out good points and lets people know that not all LEDs are equal. it is always good to have more then one point of view.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

longiotti, the questions you're asking have been answered many times over in various threads on this forum. The most informational thread is the big DIY LEDs - the writeup thread. Yes, it's a lot of effort to read, but that's because there's lots of information there.

If you want the quick version, TheFishMan65 maintains a summary he posts every few dozen pages. Here is a recent instance of it:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17368445&postcount=4260

Also, a final note. Many people build LEDs for the potential energy savings. A cheap LED rig might use less energy than a typical reef lighting rig constructed with MH or fluorescents. However, as we're seeing evidence of in this thread, there can be a VAST difference in efficiency between different HP LEDs. Even within a given model, i.e. the Cree XR-E, efficiency can vary by hundreds of percent from one brightness bin to another. Hence, knowing "this fixture is built with LEDs" doesn't tell us ANYTHING about potential efficiency savings over other types of lighting rigs. Even knowing "this fixture is built with XR-E LEDs" doesn't tell us much, since there's still a lot of variation from bin to bin. Hence, those of us who put a lot of effort into learning about LEDs tend to verge on the fanatical side of knowing the specifications of the products we're talking about, since there's such a huge potential for similar-sounding products to vary in ways that are significant to some of us.

 

[Nanook]

Maybe a question for a new thread, but are LED lights even capable of penetrating a tank height of 30"?

 

[XSiVE]

Maybe a question for a new thread, but are LED lights even capable of penetrating a tank height of 30"?

with the right lenses, absolutely. Im running a relatively low-density (Led count per sq/in of surface area) rig with "wide to medium" optics and Im getting 250 PAR in the hot area on my sandbed.. increase the density slightly and put tighter optics on there and you can easily get the same measurements in a 30" tank.

 

[StevesLEDs]

Datasheets

Datasheets

Folks, I previously tried to disclose how LEDs are produced, but it got "moderated." With that information, I would be willing to provide datasheets. However, since my displaying information about the products I sell or even referring you to my website is against the rules, to whom can I email the chip datasheets to?

Dur_Wille, shoot me a PM and I'll get you the datasheets.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

with the right lenses, absolutely.

+1. LEDs have a big flexibility advantage that's completely absent in other forms of lighting - we can swap optics to change where the light goes. With T5 or MH, you typically have only a few reasonable reflector choices, and little or no control over "spread."

Meanwhile, with LEDs, you can put the same array on a 12" tank or a 30" tank and get the same PAR at the sandbed by swapping optics - as long as you understand the increased intensity on the taller tank with narrower optics comes at the cost of decreased spread.

Search this forum for widmer's projector thread - he mounted an LED array on his ceiling and there's pretty much zero spill outside his tank. More or less impossible with what we have available for other forms of lighting, and the same technique could be used to get incredible PAR all the way to the sandbed of the deepest tank you could fit in your home.

 

[Nanook]

How many years do you think it will be before these fixtures are available in models for the large tank folks. For example, I have a 96x30x30 and a 60x60x30 cube tank and my electrical bills with 8 110 watt vhos and 4 250 watt mh on hqi and 4 400 watt mh on hqi is ridiculously expensive.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

If considering DIY, there's no time like the present. If considering off the shelf, you might be waiting a while. It's hard to build commercial LED fixtures that still allow the hobbyist to take advantage of LEDs' inherent flexibility, without it looking like a DIY project. And that leaves manufacturers trying to build a different fixture for every type of tank, which is also difficult to do. So, for now, IMHO, if you're really interested in wringing every last bit of advantage out of LEDs, DIY is a pretty clear choice.

 

[XSiVE]

How many years do you think it will be before these fixtures are available in models for the large tank folks. For example, I have a 96x30x30 and a 60x60x30 cube tank and my electrical bills with 8 110 watt vhos and 4 250 watt mh on hqi and 4 400 watt mh on hqi is ridiculously expensive.

You could do it today if you had the ambition. No offense but you've gotta get your mind to think outside of the typical "light box" that we're used to working in with reefkeeping if you want to get into LED stuff.

To light either of those, I would consider your rockwork and which areas you wanted to really have high amounts of light available and which areas needed less, or even just a bit of ambient light and then put together several smaller pendants to highlight those areas, possibly keeping some VHO in the mix to ensure proper ambient lighting throughout the system.

edit: yeah, what dwzm said too.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

To light either of those, I would consider your rockwork and which areas you wanted to really have high amounts of light available and which areas needed less, or even just a bit of ambient light and then put together several smaller pendants to highlight those areas, possibly keeping some VHO in the mix to ensure proper ambient lighting throughout the system.

+1! Another advantage of LEDs. You can get really, really specific in what parts of your tank get what sort of lighting. Not only intensity, but color, angle, sharpness, and so on. You can create some really dramatic conditions - slanted "shafts of light" at dawn and dusk, and so on.

FWIW I'm on the verge of starting the build for my 360g, and it's going to follow what XSiVE outlined. From a pure "rules of thumb" perspective, it'll be about half the power/density you might expect for an LED rig, but that's because I'm not putting a lot of light over empty sand, none over the overflow box, and so on. Areas with mostly lower light corals will get lower light. Areas with SPS will get more LEDs and tighter optics. So, instead of 4 250w MH and a pair of 110w VHO, I'll probably end up with around 300w of LED.