Do NOT get a mandarin goby or scooter blenny...until...

Sk8r

Staff member
RC Mod
You have a very mature 20 gallon fuge with copepods supporting the fish. Yes, they sell mandys that are supposed to eat other foods. They are specially advertised, and now and again one actually does. There is also the occasional one that starts doing it later. The usual fate of mandarins bought by people who think they can change what the fish is born to eat or that hope it will eat frozen food when its brain is wired to see only live food---is usually slow death by starvation.

Can I keep a mandarin or scooter?
Posted 03/03/2012 at 09:44 AM by Sk8r
A mandy should be making a successful 'kill' of a pod every 5 seconds to remain healthy. Keeping one in a well-established 50 with 50 lbs of holey rock, and a mature, year-old 20 gallon fuge with another 20 lbs of rock is very marginal. If you meet those conditions and there is no competition for pods, you can do it with caution. A hundred gallon tank is better.

To run the math, there are 86400 seconds in 24 hours...and given 12 hours of dark when it is not eating (it actually eats before the lights come on...that is 43200 seconds of daylight, divided by 5 (every five seconds)---meaning that a mandy eats about 8640 pods a day, or 720 an hour. Two thousand pods, if fed to it in the required concentration, will be eaten in less than 3 hours. If you have a pair---do the math. You need at least 100 gallons supported by a very large, strong fuge with cheato and live rock.

Note that mandarins and scooters are the one type (dragonets) exempt from quarantine, You take your chances, this once. Their difficult diet makes quarantine a no-go: fortunately their extreme protective slime coat does not allow them to host the ich parasite (unless the fish is sick and/or in bad water conditions [particularly very low alkalinity.]) IE, they can get it, but it is very, very rare. Their slime coat is so thick they feel like a handful of warm Jell-o, and they are frequently believed to have ich---when they have simply gotten some white sand grains stuck to the slime coat.

They have no sense of territoriality toward other species (and will violate territory completely oblivious to the other fish's objections.) They will, however, kill ANY other mandarin that appears if the hunting is not very, very, very good. If you do not start out with a mated pair, don't try to put another mandy in later.

They also are one species in danger during a total tank blackout for cyano: they sleep in the sand, go fast asleep, and snails will eat them alive. Do not black out your tank entirely: the cyano can be perfectly well treated by simply not running the tank lights---the room lights and the windows with blinds shut are quite enough.


If you have the right tank and are willing to risk the no-quarantine dice roll on a pretty solid bet---they're a very pretty addition to your tank, usually out even before the lights are on, terrorizing the pod population.
 
this can't be stressed enough, you need to prepare for these fish if they're on your stock list.

understand that from the other residents of your tank, to the configuration of fuges, rocks, and sand, you need design with them in mind.

given the right conditions, these fish are actually pretty easy to keep. however, getting to and maintaining the right conditions can be difficult. the smaller the tank, the more difficult (to impossible) it can be. stack the deck in your favor in as many ways as possible.

any other feeding you do should only ever be considered supplemental. they need to have their own food supply. you hand feeding them will not be able to match their needs.
 
Sk8er,

Not sure how large a volume my fuge is, sump is a 40 breeder, and largest section of the 3 sections is a refugium filled with rock rubble. My tank is 180 gallons with about 160 lbs of very porours rock. This should be able to eventually support a mandarin correct? I have a very high copepod population already (hundreds and hundreds on front glass alone, kind of annoying lol) but am waiting untill tank gets a little more mature.

Love these fish and have always wanted one,

Thanks,
-Z
 
in a 180 gallon you shouldn't have any problems eventually keeping a lone mandy, as long as you don't stock any other direct food competitors. six line wrasse for example.
 
Thank you, very informative. I am planing on keeping one of those beautiful mandis later on since my tank is not mature enough yet. I have 75 gal with 55 gal sump/fuge. My refugium section is 15 gal (21x12x15) might be enough? I just start growing some chaeto in my fuge but no LR in it yet. My build in my signature.
 
The other thing to consider is the other tank mates you plan on keeping with your Mandarin and their eating habits. Even with a refugium full of pods your Mandarin is going to lose the eating battle when competing with a wrasse.
 
The other thing to consider is the other tank mates you plan on keeping with your Mandarin and their eating habits. Even with a refugium full of pods your Mandarin is going to lose the eating battle when competing with a wrasse.

My planned stocking list was along these lines...
"1) pair of occ. clowns - in QT tank and doing great so far
2) Royal Gramma
3) Firefish
4) Canary blenny
5) Flame Angel (I know arent always 100% reef safe)
6) bangaii cardinal
6) Yellow Kole eye tang
7) Sail fin tang
8) mandarin dragonet

Really wanted to get an engineer goby, but am thinking this may be a bad idea after reading up on them Love the cool eel look tho."

Don't think any of these would be big copepod eaters. No wrasse.
 
My planned stocking list was along these lines...
"1) pair of occ. clowns - in QT tank and doing great so far
2) Royal Gramma
3) Firefish
4) Canary blenny
5) Flame Angel (I know arent always 100% reef safe)
6) bangaii cardinal
6) Yellow Kole eye tang
7) Sail fin tang
8) mandarin dragonet

Really wanted to get an engineer goby, but am thinking this may be a bad idea after reading up on them Love the cool eel look tho."

Don't think any of these would be big copepod eaters. No wrasse.

my clowns and royal gramma occasionally eat some pods too
 
so we shouldn't QT a mandarin? I've been a little confused on this... I thought we need to QT mandarin in order to teach them to eat frozen. But if they don't, wouldn't they starve to death without pods in the QT?

or do people teach them to eat frozens in the DT?

or shall I prepare a pod condo and transfer to QT daily?

my 100gal DT and 40gal sump has been up for 8 months.. not a lot of copepods, but tons and tons of amphipods of all sizes... I've been trying to search for a mandarin that's willing to eat in the store
 
This is why I say mandys are real hard to qt. They need a mature tank. The good news is it's almost impossible for a healthy one to get ich: their slime coat is epic. This is WHY you should be careful to keep alk at 8.3, to help them keep that. Personally, they're one fish I won't qt, because of that, and because they tend to starve in qt and become so ill they can't eat even when food is available. You just grit your teeth, pick a healthy one from a healthy tank and hope you don't get the one exception in 10,000. Most end up starving to death because owners buy them without realizing how many pods they need. Rubble piles in your main tank help. Ditching the filter socks helps, imho, though some use them---I have to ask how long how successfully, but maybe they work ok---and you just never, ever depend on altering a fish's basic food supply. They're a fish of very small brain, and they rarely pattern onto anything else. I had one , once upon a time, who learned to eat mysis because she followed the purple tang everywhere, and he ate it. SO she would eat a few. But that's fish learning from fish. We're not able to explain to them.

Be aware that slime is so thick sometimes sand grains stick to it and owners think they have ich. If it goes away in a few hours, it wasn't.

Your tank is probably good. Pods hide. And I'd just not believe any claims that a certain mandarin eats something other than pods. One mandy and a 100 gallon tank with a sump fuge should get along fine. 2 and that size could be in trouble. And don't get a scooter AND a mandy or a wrasse and a mandy. Competition.
 
thanks Sk8r for the help! I just took out the filter socks. Always hated cleaning them.. and they trap a ton of pods
 
My little dragonet is not doing so well. He is very inactive the last day and a half. In the Last month he has been very active all over the rocks and sand bed muching on pods and such. He also ate pe mysis twice a day, many times with selecon added to promote health. I harvest pods and have been dosing tigger pods every week since I got him. Afraid he still isn't getting enough nutrition. I put him the the pod loaded refugium and he's still not interested in eating.

I can out him in QT but I'm not sure what to treat him for. He went through qt and TTM just fine. I dosed prazipro to the dt last week and removed it after 6 days.

I am very sad for the little guy. Any advice is greatly appreciated. I am disgusted with my lfs as I asked all the right questions about nutrition. I have a feeling I got him malnurished and then in my 4 month old set up it finished him off. I am praying and still have hope.
 
Get that alk to 8.3 if it isn't, and buy a bottle of pods is all I can suggest. Wishing the little guy the best.
 
If he is crawling all over the rocks and appears to be catching pods would that mean he is doing ok. Kind of asking if he just nips at anything that looks like a pod or just when he actually finds one?. I seeding my tank in the beginning with a ton of pods and I seem to have a population. I have a one inch high band of algae around the base of my tank and have about 6 pods per inch living on it. Also what is a pod cave and how is it built?. And one last thing, what are the signs to look out for when they are starving?
 
Thank you for that info very useful and informative.
That would explain why before I got my 2 mandys I had a huge visible colony of pods, within 3 weeks couldn't see 1, even with lights off they were not seen any more.
I am lucky and they do eat all prepared foods (took quite some time to train) & they still obviously find pods that I cant see as they do pick and peck all day. It is very useful info to find out just how much they actually do eat ! thanks

I think they do have a reasonable brain as such, my two no when the power heads get turned off, its feed time and always make their way to a certain spot in the tank (most food flows that way) to eat. I actually think they are quite smart.
 
Get that alk to 8.3 if it isn't, and buy a bottle of pods is all I can suggest. Wishing the little guy the best.

Thanks for the feedback. I am at 8.3 but wish I wasnt so I could do something anything.

Food is all around him, pods included. I need to find a very mature reef around here and see if they will take him but honestly if he won't eat the pods and mysis right in front of him Im not sure it would do any good.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I am at 8.3 but wish I wasnt so I could do something anything.

Food is all around him, pods included. I need to find a very mature reef around here and see if they will take him but honestly if he won't eat the pods and mysis right in front of him Im not sure it would do any good.

the only other remediation steps i can suggest are running a large amount of carbon and doing a water change, just in case.

that's more a Hail Mary for sure, but at least it is worth a try. i went through a multi-day period with my mandy where she was lethargic and not eating. hopefully yours will turn around.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2440483&highlight=lethargic
 
This is good info to know but also stinks, for me. I wanted both, mandarin and a wrasse in my 75. Looks like I'll need a quarter to figure out which I should get cause I can't pick between the two.
 
Carbon might be a good idea. I don't know that Prazi has any negative effect on mandys, but the fact that some critters react differently to certain things (angels and copper, eg) is another strong reason never to medicate the dt. And if it doesn't affect the fish, it might affect the invertebrates, eg the pods. Carbon removes many meds, and that might be something to try.
 
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