Do you think stress causes Ich?
- Thread starter Terry B
- Start date
RobertK
Premium Member
Hi Terry,
Long time no see. One of the things that struck me the most in my past readings on this topic was that the hormonal response to stress is remarkably similar in fish and other vertebrates, including humans. As you know, it has been well documented that various stressors in aquariums (aggression, overcrowding, poor water quality, sudden temperature change, etc.) lead to this hormonal response in fish, indeed a stressor is defined as a stimulus that leads to the release of stress hormones. As Biosystems has pointed out, it has been well documented in humans (and less well in fish) that stress hormones have a negative impact on the immune system, increasing one's susceptibility to infection if exposed to a pathogen or allowing a subclinical infection to worsen. In my experience, this has become accepted as common knowledge among many hobbyists (especially on this board), thanks in part to the efforts of people like you to dispel old myths.
Best regards,
Robert
Long time no see. One of the things that struck me the most in my past readings on this topic was that the hormonal response to stress is remarkably similar in fish and other vertebrates, including humans. As you know, it has been well documented that various stressors in aquariums (aggression, overcrowding, poor water quality, sudden temperature change, etc.) lead to this hormonal response in fish, indeed a stressor is defined as a stimulus that leads to the release of stress hormones. As Biosystems has pointed out, it has been well documented in humans (and less well in fish) that stress hormones have a negative impact on the immune system, increasing one's susceptibility to infection if exposed to a pathogen or allowing a subclinical infection to worsen. In my experience, this has become accepted as common knowledge among many hobbyists (especially on this board), thanks in part to the efforts of people like you to dispel old myths.
Best regards,
Robert
Jameso
I have to disagree on two points. First I do not believe at all that ich is pretty much always present in marine aquariums. This has been disproved with a sufficient amount of evidence. I can give you quote from the previously mentioned book to support this if you like. I also think you're percentage is way off. Secondly, Cryptocaryon irritans ARE sufficient to cause a disease outbreak. Perfectly healthy fish can become infected. Yes, stress can be an important factor in infection. However, stress is not necessarily vital for infection to occur. Yes of
Terry B
I have to disagree on two points. First I do not believe at all that ich is pretty much always present in marine aquariums. This has been disproved with a sufficient amount of evidence. I can give you quote from the previously mentioned book to support this if you like. I also think you're percentage is way off. Secondly, Cryptocaryon irritans ARE sufficient to cause a disease outbreak. Perfectly healthy fish can become infected. Yes, stress can be an important factor in infection. However, stress is not necessarily vital for infection to occur. Yes of
Terry B
Steve,
When you quoted me you should have looked at what I said a little closer.
"...but it only causes problems when the water quality is poor or the fish is weakened by something like a wound."
I was speaking about falcultative pathogens at that point not obligate ones.
Terry B to
When you quoted me you should have looked at what I said a little closer.
"...but it only causes problems when the water quality is poor or the fish is weakened by something like a wound."
I was speaking about falcultative pathogens at that point not obligate ones.
Terry B to
Biosystems
New member
TerryB:
It is interesting that you mention the temp drop decreasing the slime layer as many hobbyist have had crypto problems following temperature changes.
Have you noticed as well that crypto is a little known disease outside of the hobby? Often texts on marine parsitology completely do not cover the topic. I do not know if this is a case in A. Wedemeyer's book or not as I am not familiar with his/her writings. I do know from working in a dept. of veterinary micro and paras. for some years that parasites even in veterinary situations(where they are much more problematic) are often a forgotten issue. Often they are not referred to simply because there is not that many people that work on them.
For example in most texts they often refer to the most active part of a telost immune system is the antibody response (similar to what immunologist once thought for mammalian systems) yet in the case of fish the affinity of antibodies only increases 10 fold over continued exposure.....Leading me to believe that like mammalian systems other systems may be more active than previously thought. I only mention this, because I feel the feild is evolving and hopefully some time soon we will be able to introduce hobbyist to methods of treating if not preventing parasitic diseases.
As far as my thoughts on garlic-I ran a study that was described here some time ago on the use of garlic treatment for crypto infections. I do not know if it still exists but often times my results were misinterpreted. I do not think that garlic is a cure for crypto as this is not how ingestion of this product functions. It has been used for some time in the prevention of arthropods attachment in the vet. feild and it seems to perform the same task for fish. You know better than I do that often times people log on and write "My ich is cured" after only treating their fish the morning of.... You and I know that this is a normal course of the disease for the syptoms to subside in the evenings but often times they don't. There is no doubt in my mind that garlic was effective in my tests with P. hepatus-but it did not cure the disease per say. It did buy time for immune responses to counter the disease and take it to at least subclinical levels. I did however notice one or two spots in the specimens. This method was somewhat skewed as the control group was in an interconnected tank and this of course was a source of subsequent infection of the treated group. I wish I could have persued this and other tests forward if it were not for me torching my house.
\
Please keep up the conversation as it is only through these means that us as hobbyists will solve these problems.
BEst regards,
Tim
It is interesting that you mention the temp drop decreasing the slime layer as many hobbyist have had crypto problems following temperature changes.
Have you noticed as well that crypto is a little known disease outside of the hobby? Often texts on marine parsitology completely do not cover the topic. I do not know if this is a case in A. Wedemeyer's book or not as I am not familiar with his/her writings. I do know from working in a dept. of veterinary micro and paras. for some years that parasites even in veterinary situations(where they are much more problematic) are often a forgotten issue. Often they are not referred to simply because there is not that many people that work on them.
For example in most texts they often refer to the most active part of a telost immune system is the antibody response (similar to what immunologist once thought for mammalian systems) yet in the case of fish the affinity of antibodies only increases 10 fold over continued exposure.....Leading me to believe that like mammalian systems other systems may be more active than previously thought. I only mention this, because I feel the feild is evolving and hopefully some time soon we will be able to introduce hobbyist to methods of treating if not preventing parasitic diseases.
As far as my thoughts on garlic-I ran a study that was described here some time ago on the use of garlic treatment for crypto infections. I do not know if it still exists but often times my results were misinterpreted. I do not think that garlic is a cure for crypto as this is not how ingestion of this product functions. It has been used for some time in the prevention of arthropods attachment in the vet. feild and it seems to perform the same task for fish. You know better than I do that often times people log on and write "My ich is cured" after only treating their fish the morning of.... You and I know that this is a normal course of the disease for the syptoms to subside in the evenings but often times they don't. There is no doubt in my mind that garlic was effective in my tests with P. hepatus-but it did not cure the disease per say. It did buy time for immune responses to counter the disease and take it to at least subclinical levels. I did however notice one or two spots in the specimens. This method was somewhat skewed as the control group was in an interconnected tank and this of course was a source of subsequent infection of the treated group. I wish I could have persued this and other tests forward if it were not for me torching my house.
\
Please keep up the conversation as it is only through these means that us as hobbyists will solve these problems.
BEst regards,
Tim
Lori,
Thanks for your encouragement! Its fun to share with others.
Hi Robert,
I hope you are doing well. Its nice to hear from you. I do agree that stress reduces immune function making fish more suseptible to infection. Cypt doesn't always need the help of stress to infect fish. I addressed this a little more in my 9:51 post to Biosystems.
Take care,
Terry B
Biosystems
I think our opinions about garlic are pretty much the same. It can be a helpful tool, but it is still not the most effective method of treatment. BTW, have you heard of anyone using garlic for Brooklynella? Thanks for your input, you always seem to have some detailed info to share.
Best wishes,
Terry B
Thanks for your encouragement! Its fun to share with others.
Hi Robert,
I hope you are doing well. Its nice to hear from you. I do agree that stress reduces immune function making fish more suseptible to infection. Cypt doesn't always need the help of stress to infect fish. I addressed this a little more in my 9:51 post to Biosystems.
Take care,
Terry B
Biosystems
I think our opinions about garlic are pretty much the same. It can be a helpful tool, but it is still not the most effective method of treatment. BTW, have you heard of anyone using garlic for Brooklynella? Thanks for your input, you always seem to have some detailed info to share.
Best wishes,
Terry B
Biosystems
New member
Terry:
I have looked into garlic for brooky.....I recently acquired a breeder set of A. negripes-if you ever have had this clown, you know how they suffer from shipping stress- I was lucky to get a pair through-needless to say I ordered many many more than this trying to get a pair that I could breed. Anyway-out of the pair that I had left one came down with brook.....Nothing I tried worked on one (although it prolonged how long it took to die) but the other something worked (at least so far)-but I do not know what since I was trying everything I could....
I have never seen any info on this and this is actually the first case of brookynella that I have ever had to deal with myself.
I have looked into garlic for brooky.....I recently acquired a breeder set of A. negripes-if you ever have had this clown, you know how they suffer from shipping stress- I was lucky to get a pair through-needless to say I ordered many many more than this trying to get a pair that I could breed. Anyway-out of the pair that I had left one came down with brook.....Nothing I tried worked on one (although it prolonged how long it took to die) but the other something worked (at least so far)-but I do not know what since I was trying everything I could....
I have never seen any info on this and this is actually the first case of brookynella that I have ever had to deal with myself.
Biosystems,
I forgot to answer your questions about knowledge being scarce sometimes and nobody seems to care about marine aquarium fish diseases. Almost all the scientific studies of fish disease and stress have been directed at Salmoniods or other farm fish. This is because money is the motivational incentive. With aquarium fish, some people profit when your fish don't survive. People want to sell us more equipment, products and new fish to replace the diseased ones. Don't you think this is why very little publicity has been given to hyposalinity? Who makes money on that. They would rather have you buy medications and more fish. The love of money and greed is what makes the world go round. This is a sad but true fact. BTW, most vets know nothing about fish.
Formaldehyde dips are the best established treatment for Brooklynella. I haven't seen anything else work with consistancy. I was just wondering about garlic. I have been given a couple of reports that it works, but you know how definative that is (not).
Terry B
[This message has been edited by Terry B (edited 09-22-2000).]
I forgot to answer your questions about knowledge being scarce sometimes and nobody seems to care about marine aquarium fish diseases. Almost all the scientific studies of fish disease and stress have been directed at Salmoniods or other farm fish. This is because money is the motivational incentive. With aquarium fish, some people profit when your fish don't survive. People want to sell us more equipment, products and new fish to replace the diseased ones. Don't you think this is why very little publicity has been given to hyposalinity? Who makes money on that. They would rather have you buy medications and more fish. The love of money and greed is what makes the world go round. This is a sad but true fact. BTW, most vets know nothing about fish.
Formaldehyde dips are the best established treatment for Brooklynella. I haven't seen anything else work with consistancy. I was just wondering about garlic. I have been given a couple of reports that it works, but you know how definative that is (not).
Terry B
[This message has been edited by Terry B (edited 09-22-2000).]
Biosystems
New member
Terry:
I do not have any information on garlic treatment for brookynella. I have never had to deal with this parasite until recently when I acquired some A. negripes. If you have ever dealt with this clownfish you know that it is extremely difficult to ship. Anyway of the fish I received a pair survived the shipping stress....Oh boy I thought until whammy they came down with brookynella. Well nothing I tried could save one and now I am left with one seemingly healthy and cured A. negripes. What cleared this one and not the other will remain a mystery since they were treated similarly. The other progressed very rapidly but survived quite some time (three weeks) with the disease. I can not even begin to guess what it was that got this one to pull through, but something tells me it wasn't garlic. If I ever have the misfortune of dealing with this parasite again-and I have no intentions of trying (this is not like crypto where if something doesn't work I can go with hyposalinity) maybe I will see what treatments I can use on a one on one basis-but if it is breeder stock like this was I will try everything again. With the tangs they were easy to find-there isnt many clownfish sold here-so finding infected fish is not as easy.
Tim
I do not have any information on garlic treatment for brookynella. I have never had to deal with this parasite until recently when I acquired some A. negripes. If you have ever dealt with this clownfish you know that it is extremely difficult to ship. Anyway of the fish I received a pair survived the shipping stress....Oh boy I thought until whammy they came down with brookynella. Well nothing I tried could save one and now I am left with one seemingly healthy and cured A. negripes. What cleared this one and not the other will remain a mystery since they were treated similarly. The other progressed very rapidly but survived quite some time (three weeks) with the disease. I can not even begin to guess what it was that got this one to pull through, but something tells me it wasn't garlic. If I ever have the misfortune of dealing with this parasite again-and I have no intentions of trying (this is not like crypto where if something doesn't work I can go with hyposalinity) maybe I will see what treatments I can use on a one on one basis-but if it is breeder stock like this was I will try everything again. With the tangs they were easy to find-there isnt many clownfish sold here-so finding infected fish is not as easy.
Tim
Biosystems
New member
Terry:
I agree with the post of money and greed...Crytpo is one of those diseses that increases the economy in the US not decreases it. It adds more sells in the pet stores and since there are not many tropical water marine food fish farms here, there just isnt funds for research on it. I was just wondering that if in your research you had stumbled across something that I had missed...Some great text or research that covers it more thoroughly than I have found-I personally think aquarists texts and articles do better than anything I have found to date.
Being someone who supports hyposalinity so adamently, I am curious of what you think about the companies that sale FW adapted marine fish through the mags you publish in? I am well aware of Cheung's work in the 70's, but would like to hear your side of this.
Tim
I agree with the post of money and greed...Crytpo is one of those diseses that increases the economy in the US not decreases it. It adds more sells in the pet stores and since there are not many tropical water marine food fish farms here, there just isnt funds for research on it. I was just wondering that if in your research you had stumbled across something that I had missed...Some great text or research that covers it more thoroughly than I have found-I personally think aquarists texts and articles do better than anything I have found to date.
Being someone who supports hyposalinity so adamently, I am curious of what you think about the companies that sale FW adapted marine fish through the mags you publish in? I am well aware of Cheung's work in the 70's, but would like to hear your side of this.
Tim
Hi Tim,
There have been some reports in the scientific journals about Cryptocaryon irritans, but the studies I have seen on stress have not been performed on reef fish. Dr. Colorni in particular has written several papers on SW ich. FAMA has two articles that I wrote that will update the information we have about Crypt. I need to call them and see if they have scheduled them for publication yet. The last time I talked to the editor they told me that they would print them soon.
Since I havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seen anything that would actually support that long-term hyposalinity is detrimental I hesitate to take a position about keeping reef fish in brackish water. I suppose it must be very important just how low a salinity they use. I would think that keeping the fish at 11ppt salinity (specific gravity of 1.008 at 78F) or lower would cause serious problems. I think the key is keeping the salinity in the ambient water higher than what is found in the internal fluids of the fish. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t recommend keeping reef fish indefinitely in hyposaline water. What would be the point? Hyposalinity therapy is used for a purpose and a limited amount of time. Still, I would like to see some evidence that supports why keeping fish in a reduced salinity on a permanent basis is detrimental. What are the negative effects? Maybe something to do with digestive enzymes, I think not. Maybe someone else has some ideas.
Terry B
There have been some reports in the scientific journals about Cryptocaryon irritans, but the studies I have seen on stress have not been performed on reef fish. Dr. Colorni in particular has written several papers on SW ich. FAMA has two articles that I wrote that will update the information we have about Crypt. I need to call them and see if they have scheduled them for publication yet. The last time I talked to the editor they told me that they would print them soon.
Since I havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seen anything that would actually support that long-term hyposalinity is detrimental I hesitate to take a position about keeping reef fish in brackish water. I suppose it must be very important just how low a salinity they use. I would think that keeping the fish at 11ppt salinity (specific gravity of 1.008 at 78F) or lower would cause serious problems. I think the key is keeping the salinity in the ambient water higher than what is found in the internal fluids of the fish. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t recommend keeping reef fish indefinitely in hyposaline water. What would be the point? Hyposalinity therapy is used for a purpose and a limited amount of time. Still, I would like to see some evidence that supports why keeping fish in a reduced salinity on a permanent basis is detrimental. What are the negative effects? Maybe something to do with digestive enzymes, I think not. Maybe someone else has some ideas.
Terry B
Terry B wrote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t say that no one has ever argued that stress causes Ich<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didnt! my reply <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>DOH! Nobody I know has ever argued that! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> was in reference to your statment
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I believe that a parasite causes Ick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message has been edited by Aquaman (edited 09-23-2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t say that no one has ever argued that stress causes Ich<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didnt! my reply <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>DOH! Nobody I know has ever argued that! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> was in reference to your statment
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I believe that a parasite causes Ick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message has been edited by Aquaman (edited 09-23-2000).]
Aquaman,
The answer is both! It is impossible to cause an outbreak of ich if the parasite is not in the system. If the parasite is present then stress makes the fish more susceptible to a full-blown infection. If the parasite is present then the fish have a subclinical infection (non symptomatic). This can still be seen by examining skin and gill samples. When the population of parasites increases then we see the telltale spots. Unstressed fish become clinically infected as the population of parasites increases and spreads to other fish. Fish that have previously been infected can have some increased resistance for up to six months. Add a fish that has not been previously challenged or it is weak and the infection becomes obvious.
Terry B
The answer is both! It is impossible to cause an outbreak of ich if the parasite is not in the system. If the parasite is present then stress makes the fish more susceptible to a full-blown infection. If the parasite is present then the fish have a subclinical infection (non symptomatic). This can still be seen by examining skin and gill samples. When the population of parasites increases then we see the telltale spots. Unstressed fish become clinically infected as the population of parasites increases and spreads to other fish. Fish that have previously been infected can have some increased resistance for up to six months. Add a fish that has not been previously challenged or it is weak and the infection becomes obvious.
Terry B
Biosystems
New member
Terry:
I am familiar with Colorni's work-but he is not well published in US journals-possibly b/c he is out of Isreal. To add to this Colorni works on multiple disease problems in fish not just Crypto. It all goes back to the importance of this disease in the US. Australians probably publish more than anyone and that info is few and far between. I assume that the Japanese literature may present more data on this since they do so much more mariculture than we do-but I do not read Japanese. I do have a Russian translator for the russian texts and literature-also large fisheries groups -although they seem not to have a problem with Crypto either-not surprising since the fish are mostly colder water species.
Well thanks for your perspectives.
Tim
[This message has been edited by Biosystems (edited 09-23-2000).]
I am familiar with Colorni's work-but he is not well published in US journals-possibly b/c he is out of Isreal. To add to this Colorni works on multiple disease problems in fish not just Crypto. It all goes back to the importance of this disease in the US. Australians probably publish more than anyone and that info is few and far between. I assume that the Japanese literature may present more data on this since they do so much more mariculture than we do-but I do not read Japanese. I do have a Russian translator for the russian texts and literature-also large fisheries groups -although they seem not to have a problem with Crypto either-not surprising since the fish are mostly colder water species.
Well thanks for your perspectives.
Tim
[This message has been edited by Biosystems (edited 09-23-2000).]
Martyn
Premium Member
Great info some thing positive to add to my Disease and infection folders and books.
Nothing really to add as you have said most of what is needed to know Terry and others.
Many Regards.
Martyn.
Just something I found.
Infections of Cryptocaryon irritans on wild fish from southeast Queensland, Australia
Diggles BK, Lester RJG
ABSTRACT: Wild-caught marine fish from 3 sites in SE Queensland, Australia, were examined over a period of up to 13 mo for infections of the parasitic ciliate Cryptocaryon irritans. Infections of C. irritans were found to be common on the fish sampled. Out of a total of 358 fish (14 species), 239 (66.7%) from 13 species were found to be infected. At Site 1 at the mouth of an estuary, the prevalence of C. irritans infections was 79% and the mean intensity was 12.9 parasites fish-1. At Site 2, a coastal bar area, the prevalence of infection dropped to 66% and a mean intensity of 5.0 parasites fish-1, whilst at Site 3 on the Great Barrier Reef, prevalence was lowest at 51% with a mean intensity of 2.3 parasites fish-1. The study concentrated on 2 sparid fishes, Acanthopagrus australis from Sites 1 and 2 and Gymnocranius audleyi from Site 3. The prevalence of infections on A. australis from Site 1 (n = 101) was 100% with a mean intensity of 14.6 parasites fish-1, whilst at Site 2 (n = 74) the prevalence was 88% at a mean intensity of 5.2 parasites fish-1. There was no apparent seasonality in prevalence or intensity of infections at Sites 1 and 2 despite water temperatures ranging between 15 and 27*C. At Site 3, the prevalence of infections of G. audleyi (n = 39) was 38% with a mean intensity of 1.9 parasites fish-1. The diameter of the tomonts collected from A. australis from Sites 1 and 2 varied inversely with water temperature, and was not related to host size. Our results show that infections of C. irritans are common on wild fish, not rare as previously thought. This may be partially due to the increased sensitivity of our tomont collection technique. Our data suggest that C. irritans may exhibit a degree of host specificity in the wild, and also that its natural distribution can be extended into estuaries and seasonally into warm temperate waters.
Nothing really to add as you have said most of what is needed to know Terry and others.
Many Regards.
Martyn.
Just something I found.
Infections of Cryptocaryon irritans on wild fish from southeast Queensland, Australia
Diggles BK, Lester RJG
ABSTRACT: Wild-caught marine fish from 3 sites in SE Queensland, Australia, were examined over a period of up to 13 mo for infections of the parasitic ciliate Cryptocaryon irritans. Infections of C. irritans were found to be common on the fish sampled. Out of a total of 358 fish (14 species), 239 (66.7%) from 13 species were found to be infected. At Site 1 at the mouth of an estuary, the prevalence of C. irritans infections was 79% and the mean intensity was 12.9 parasites fish-1. At Site 2, a coastal bar area, the prevalence of infection dropped to 66% and a mean intensity of 5.0 parasites fish-1, whilst at Site 3 on the Great Barrier Reef, prevalence was lowest at 51% with a mean intensity of 2.3 parasites fish-1. The study concentrated on 2 sparid fishes, Acanthopagrus australis from Sites 1 and 2 and Gymnocranius audleyi from Site 3. The prevalence of infections on A. australis from Site 1 (n = 101) was 100% with a mean intensity of 14.6 parasites fish-1, whilst at Site 2 (n = 74) the prevalence was 88% at a mean intensity of 5.2 parasites fish-1. There was no apparent seasonality in prevalence or intensity of infections at Sites 1 and 2 despite water temperatures ranging between 15 and 27*C. At Site 3, the prevalence of infections of G. audleyi (n = 39) was 38% with a mean intensity of 1.9 parasites fish-1. The diameter of the tomonts collected from A. australis from Sites 1 and 2 varied inversely with water temperature, and was not related to host size. Our results show that infections of C. irritans are common on wild fish, not rare as previously thought. This may be partially due to the increased sensitivity of our tomont collection technique. Our data suggest that C. irritans may exhibit a degree of host specificity in the wild, and also that its natural distribution can be extended into estuaries and seasonally into warm temperate waters.
Biosystems
New member
MArtyn:
Diggles has published most of the current information on crypto-his work mostly realtes to intraspecific variation between different ciliate isolates. It is interesting to note that even within the same bay he has isolated ciliates that reproduce at different temperatures-some at 25C or completely dead-I have alot of this information for JohnF as he asked for it after the last debate. They also have different infectivity and pathogenesis profiles depending on the species of fish that were infected. Diggles has taken this work a bit farther by comparing primary isolates from US, Australia, and Isreal with lab isolates and doing this on several fish species.
From his data, it seems to me that these organisms mutate fairly quickly and exhibit marked changes in a short period of time. This may also answer JohnF's question whether or not his crypto can mutate/adapt to higher temps in his tank after several times treating with increased temperature.
Tim
Diggles has published most of the current information on crypto-his work mostly realtes to intraspecific variation between different ciliate isolates. It is interesting to note that even within the same bay he has isolated ciliates that reproduce at different temperatures-some at 25C or completely dead-I have alot of this information for JohnF as he asked for it after the last debate. They also have different infectivity and pathogenesis profiles depending on the species of fish that were infected. Diggles has taken this work a bit farther by comparing primary isolates from US, Australia, and Isreal with lab isolates and doing this on several fish species.
From his data, it seems to me that these organisms mutate fairly quickly and exhibit marked changes in a short period of time. This may also answer JohnF's question whether or not his crypto can mutate/adapt to higher temps in his tank after several times treating with increased temperature.
Tim
Hi Terry,
I am not qualified to delve into the biolical aspects of your question, but I would like to give you my personal experience.
I have 5 tangs between my 180 gallon reef and 125 gallon fowlr; a sailfin tang, a Naso tang, 2 hepatus tangs, and one purple tang. I have had the sailfin tang for over a year, the hepatus tangs for about 15 months, the purple tang for about 18 months, and the naso for about 1 month.
I mention my tangs specifically because of their reputation as "ich magnets". All but my naso tang have undergone fair amounts of stress in my care. I moved last year, so that necessitated (obviously) moving all my fish. I have to think that is a very stressful event in the life of a fish, being captured, put in a bucket for several hours, and than relocated into an unfamiliar home. Also during my care, I stupidly dropped the salinity in my tank rapidly when I hurredly replaced 30 gallons or so of water that siphoned out of my tank (anothter story) with plain ro/di water. That resulted in a drop in salinity from about 1.024 to about 1.021. I corrected the situation over the next few days, but that was stressful for the fish, I am sure.
Anyway, to make a long story short, with all of these tangs I have never had a case of ich. I have quarantined each one (except for the hepatus which were bought as juveniles less than a quarter in size), and make sure they get a well-rounded diet. With my various accidents and traumas, my tangs would have ich 24/7 if stress alone caused it
Brian
I am not qualified to delve into the biolical aspects of your question, but I would like to give you my personal experience.
I have 5 tangs between my 180 gallon reef and 125 gallon fowlr; a sailfin tang, a Naso tang, 2 hepatus tangs, and one purple tang. I have had the sailfin tang for over a year, the hepatus tangs for about 15 months, the purple tang for about 18 months, and the naso for about 1 month.
I mention my tangs specifically because of their reputation as "ich magnets". All but my naso tang have undergone fair amounts of stress in my care. I moved last year, so that necessitated (obviously) moving all my fish. I have to think that is a very stressful event in the life of a fish, being captured, put in a bucket for several hours, and than relocated into an unfamiliar home. Also during my care, I stupidly dropped the salinity in my tank rapidly when I hurredly replaced 30 gallons or so of water that siphoned out of my tank (anothter story) with plain ro/di water. That resulted in a drop in salinity from about 1.024 to about 1.021. I corrected the situation over the next few days, but that was stressful for the fish, I am sure.
Anyway, to make a long story short, with all of these tangs I have never had a case of ich. I have quarantined each one (except for the hepatus which were bought as juveniles less than a quarter in size), and make sure they get a well-rounded diet. With my various accidents and traumas, my tangs would have ich 24/7 if stress alone caused it
Brian
Agu
Premium Member
Terry B, A week ago I would have agreed that stress causes ich, but after my recent mini crash it's obvious that the parasite needs to be present. If it's not present you won't get ich. I had an ammonia spike and the two tangs went ballistic (scientific term) A three year old yellow tang attacked the young Powder blue with a vengence. The pb hade several cuts on it's body, and it's eyes were so clouded over it kept knocking over corals by running into them. The yellow was dead in 36 hrs, and the pb looked to be dead soon. However, after several waterchanges, being fed nori treated with selcon and/or garlic, and a week of r&r, the powder blue is back to perfect. If the parasite had been in my system I have no doubt that the pb would be dead. There was enough stress to kill most anything (including the reefkeeper), but I never saw any indication of ich on the tangs or the other fish. This would indicate to me, optimist that I am, that the parasite is not currently alive in my tank, and therefore could not infect the stressed fish. Agu
Agu,
Isn't great to learn something new. Sorry that you lost your fish. I have seen many fish in extreme stress that did not get Ich. There are so many myths to go with commonly excepted misinformation in this hobby, especially when it comes to disease. If people are interested to know more about stress I would be happy to participate in a thread about it. Alas, I have tried several times to start a thread about what stress in fish is and how to deal with it, but maybe its just too complex to interest a lot of people (maybe they think it is boring).
Best wishes,
Terry
Isn't great to learn something new. Sorry that you lost your fish. I have seen many fish in extreme stress that did not get Ich. There are so many myths to go with commonly excepted misinformation in this hobby, especially when it comes to disease. If people are interested to know more about stress I would be happy to participate in a thread about it. Alas, I have tried several times to start a thread about what stress in fish is and how to deal with it, but maybe its just too complex to interest a lot of people (maybe they think it is boring).
Best wishes,
Terry
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