Does anyone know what this is?

[gpodio]

My friend's tank has been setup for about a year now, it's 120g with a 55g sump and 40g fuge. The fuge always had some kind of jelly substance growing on the macroalgae and floating to the surface. The system seems fine, none of it seems to make it or survive in the display or sump, just the fuge... Any ideas?

Some numbers from the system:
PH 8.4
ALK 8.0
Ca 440
PO4 0
NO3 0

Thank you

 

[ClamIAm]

Hmm...that looks sort of like a water mould just from the pictures and my experience with water moulds. That being said this was from temperate freshwater and I have no idea if water moulds are prevalent in tropical marine environments. If you were able to look at it under a microscope then it would be very obvious if that's what it is.

 

[gpodio]

Yeah I'm on the fence between mold and algae... I was leaning more so toward algae, it has a similar consistency to some of those slime films you find floating around some lakes and such... It doesn't look like any mold I've seen before, then again it doesn't look like anything I've seen before it's also somewhat free-floating, which is kind of odd for mold isn't it? Isn't it more common to find mold attached to a hard surface?

In the meanwhile I'm going to suggest increasing circulation in the fuge, besides the presence of fish, that's the only other main difference between the tank and fuge.

I think I can safely rule out any of the macro algaes in the fuge being responsible for this stuff right? Like giant alien caulerpa spores... ;-)

Thank you
Giancarlo

 

[Triterium]

Looks like a focused, non-terminal repeating phantasm or possibly a class-five full-roaming vapor.

 

[gpodio]

LOL, boy I hope the marshmallow man didn't do this.... I knew we should have had that light on 24/7!! :bigeyes:

 

[gpodio]

Just closing the loop here... Managed to get some pics under the microscope and with the help of Eric B. we are quite certain it's Spirocoleus fragilis, a cyanobacteria.

That's certainly a first for me...
Thanks for the help

 

[ClamIAm]

If you looked at it under the microscope, does it look like long thin spirals that may be sort of greenish? This is what water molds (not actually fungi, but rather oomycetes) look like. I tried to find a picture on google but couldn't come up with anything.

 

[Plantbrain]

Hi,

Yes, looks like a Cyano to me.
What is the NO3 in this system?
I'd clean it out good, then do a water change, clean up the fuge some if possible. You can limit the water change and cleaning to the fuge itself also.

EM should work as well.
The other thing is adding more flow/wave maker etc to the fuge.

That one looks like a settling basin which is right where you'd see marine Cyano's growing in the natural settings

Prune, clean and keep the nutrients well managed. the NO3 will help drive faster rates of PO4 uptake and removal by the seaweeds, it need not be high, just not bottomed out.

Then you get good stable NO3 and PO4 export.

Pruning the biomass also keeps the rate of uptake/export stable as well.

Many folks neglect the fuge and plants. They grow in, get 2-10X more biomass and then suck the tank dry for NO3/PO4.

Once that happens, that's when macros start having issues.
Same deal with FW plants.

You see a good period of growth and tank health, then things crash.
The tank has a fairly stable loading rate of fish food/waste etc, the thing that really changes is the biomass of the macros/plants.

That, rather than some "unknown issue" is the root cause.
Solution: prune often and keep things clean, just like a normal garden.

The goal is not absolution, no NO3, no PO4, just low stable levels.
Too many go to extremes, the natural world is just not like that.

Which is a good thing I figure.






Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[gpodio]

Hey Tom! What are you doing in the salty world??

It's quite possible that there is currently a nitrogen deficiency in the tank, levels are all 0ppm based on our test results and just like I encounter occasionally in my refugiums, the macros are somewhat struggling for nutrients at this point. He has however cleaned things up and cut back the macros.

On a side note, I had tried KNO3 additions in the past, did great for the macros but also triggered a minor hair algae outbreak throughout the tank... fish were happy about it and it crashed a couple days later... but I think it's safer as you suggest, to keep macros trimmed (reduce uptake if needed Vs adding nutrients to the water). Sounds like were talking planted tanks again

Anyway, here are some pics from this stuff:

I'll try to find some references for oomycetes as well for comparison...

Thanks for your help everyone.

 

[Plantbrain]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11788556#post11788556 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gpodio
Hey Tom! What are you doing in the salty world??

I've been keeping salt since long before they even had wet dry filters or submersible pumps even!
I got of marine tanks about 1988, then came back about 11 years ago.

Folks generally know me from FW plants, but I am well versed in many sub aspects of the aquarium hobby.

It's quite possible that there is currently a nitrogen deficiency in the tank, levels are all 0ppm based on our test results and just like I encounter occasionally in my refugiums, the macros are somewhat struggling for nutrients at this point. He has however cleaned things up and cut back the macros.

Well, there you go.

On a side note, I had tried KNO3 additions in the past, did great for the macros but also triggered a minor hair algae outbreak throughout the tank... fish were happy about it and it crashed a couple days later... but I think it's safer as you suggest, to keep macros trimmed (reduce uptake if needed Vs adding nutrients to the water). Sounds like were talking planted tanks again

Yes, as long as you maintain the macros well, exporting what the tank has to offer, then you have the balance and more importantly, the function of the marine plants.

With stable amounts of biomass, you also get stable nutrient levels, which is much more a goal than lower is better and having these gnarly pulses of high and low nutrient levels.

Example:

Is it better to have a range of NO3 of 5-7 ppm or 1ppm to 8 ppm?
How about PO4? 0.1 ppm to 0.2ppm or 0.0 to 0.4 ppm?

While the actual readings for PO4 or NO3 might be lower at any one point with the 2nd examples, this is still the water column, it does not examplify the PO4 or NO3 status of the macro or noxious microphyte.

Microphytes respond really well to changes, they are much more like annual plants, macros are a bit more like larger perennial plants, seagrasses like Trees etc.

The scales are different here, but the example is similar.
In disturbed sites where the changes have a wider range, like 1-8 ppm every week etc, the advanage goes to the noxious microphytes.

I'm brushing over some other things here, but the basic idea is the same.

A macro adapts well to high nutrients and at the enzymatic level.
If the nutrients get lean all of a sudden, then they will crash and go into spore production, they have too........bad times are coming as far as what they adapted to.

So when you added the KNO3, that easily could have led to a different limiting nutrient/s=> Fe, PO4 etc could have run out leading to a crash and bloom of microphytes.

We have been dosing KNO3 for awhile in marine planted tanks with good results.

PO4 is the one to be careful with, I generally pulse 2x a week at 0.2ppm. You do not want it to goes higher. A diatom bloom will ensue. Fe can and should be dosed.

Alk and Ca needs to be high, just lie a coral tank also, they use CaCO3 as well.

Most of those nice white sandy beaches in Florida are not from coral rumble, it's from Halimeada optunia. Stuff grows much faster than any coral.

I also add lots of mist into the tanks(air). This breaks up the boundary layers and seems to really help gas exchange. the sticky micro bubbles also help pull off any noxious microphytes.
the other method is to use a high powered wave maker.

I have a Eco Vortex powerhead/wavemaker now, the thing is great! Ain't cheap, but one nice piece of equipment to be sure.

I'm about to see up the 60 Gallon cold water, so I'm happy, but I also have a 120 Gal, 180, another 60, and 38 ADA tank to set up.

So it'll be awhile
38, then the 60, then the 180 and then the 60 cold water is the progression.

Hard to do with work, school, life etc. hehe

Regards,
Tom Barr