Does the pH of your water cause Gas bubble in pouch?

[sugartooth]

Hello,
After about 8 months with Reidi, one male started floating head down, tail up and trying to swim around. I tried the bobby pin trick and got bubbles out. That was a couple of weeks ago, it happened again yesterday (I should say I noticed it again yesterday) and I wasn't sure, so waited until today.....got lots of bubbles out again.

What I noticed is this happened after I added superbuffer/B-Ionic to the tank to increase my pH and Alk, and I started added Kalkwasser daily.
Before, the pH tested around 7.8-8.0, thus the reason for adding buffer. After, the pH was around 8.2-8.4.
Then, I noticed the horse floating hanging out on the loc-line. Figured out it was gas. Two days ago, I added some more buffer, and here he was again with the gas.

My question is, does anyone have experience of this too? It is the same horse, the other two in the tank are fine. The other male even gave birth to babies. The horse that had bubbles had never given birth.

Is this going to kill the seahorse eventually?
These 3 are being housed in a 20 gallon long, piped into a 75 gallon reef.

The new tanks I had made are going to show up in 2 weeks, it will be a 130 gallon, and I'm hoping the problem will go away with the increase in height and width. Do you think?

 

[seas_inside]

You know, I'm not sure about changing the pH of the water or anything, but I do know one thing: please don't ever pop a bubble again with a needle or the like!! I know this is encouraged sometimes, but this is never the right or safe way to do it-it could seriously hurt your horses. Pouch evacs or use of diamox are the safe and right way to go. Just so you know for the future...!!

Hopefully someone will chime in about the pH and alk and everything.

 

[sugartooth]

Thanks.
No, I didn't pop the bubbles, I let them out by using the bobby pin to "tickle" the pouch per Seahorse Source instructions.
Sorry if it came across that I popped it.
I used the round bobby pin. However, I am not sure if I did it safely, since I had no previous experience.
I just kept at it until the bubbles came out of the pouch.
How do I know if I hurt the horse?

 

[Samala]

There are many theories floating about for gas bubble disease causes and treatment. I have seen before that using deeper tanks may help alleviate GBD, and I have seen people use decompression chambers for cases of internal GBD. Whether or not the 130g will help this specific male is just a good question at this point, or at least I cannot give you any specific thoughts on how effective that might be.

For now, it might be a good idea to treat with Diamox, as mentioned above. Some males are sensitive to GBD reocurrence, treating with Diamox may help to slow that down or at least treat the reoccurences.

I'm not sure pH fluctuations could be driving his condition, but its possible, and an interesting idea. I'll comb some of the back threads here and see if that's been explored before.

>Sarah

 

[sugartooth]

Thanks Sarah, will treating with Diamox be better than just releasing bubbles as they happen? Would it be the same kind of procedure? I really hope to remedy this by giving them their own tank with a large space.

 

[seas_inside]

Diamox is a medicine that you can admistister (sp?) in a hospital tank. It gets rid of all forms of GBD I'm pretty sure. It usually takes 10 days or more to get once you order, so it's a good thing to have on hand. After 10 days of the horse having GBD, it's usually too late. I would recommend you get it. You can get it here: http://www.inhousedrugstore.com/neurological/diamox.html

 

[pledosophy]

There is some thought the the pH of the seahorses blood can rise leading to acidosis which may be the cause of the mis function of the enzyme carbonic anhydrase which regulates CO2 concentration in the tissues and blood.

The again it could be the enzyme carbonic anhydrase which is causing the acidosis. No one is sure yet.

Somehow I don't think that was what you were refering to though.

I would think your problem could be height related. A 20g is only 12" high if your running a bare bottom, not really a good amount of vertical room for a seahorse.

Diamox is the standard treatment for GBD

The new tank might help,but know that your horse is predisposed to GBD.

 

[sugartooth]

I'm planning on going to the vet to get the Diamox. Do you think I only do a Diamox flush if it happens again? Or should I do a bath before going into the new tank even it if doesn't happen again?
Should I do periodic baths or flushes?
If this is enzyme related, then wouldn't Diamox be a temporary fix?
Should I be adding any other type supplements to help that? Currently I'm adding Selcon and Vitachem (alternating) soaked PE mysis.
I hope that it is just a combination of the predisposition and height to be the cause.
I have since stopped buffering the water in hopes to stop another reoccurance.
How do I know if I have hurt the seahorse with the bobby pin? It seemed like I had to force the pouch open with a little more effort than I would have liked.
I was also trying for a long time, so I wonder if it could get sore?

 

[Poniegirl]

If you are housing three seahorses together, you may need to think about a better half for the male who has trouble.
I assume your female is mated to the male who is producing....

 

[sugartooth]

Thank you Poniegirl. Can you elaborate about a better half for the male that's been having trouble? I am open to suggestions.
Yes, it seems that the female has mated to the male that's given birth twice now. I'm not sure if the male that had the bubbles tried, and got bubbles as a result from trying?
Well, I am having a lot of trouble getting Diamox locally, so I am ordering from the link provided above. I'm just a little skeptical since there is no quality control for these online places. You don't really have a guarantee that the formulation is correct and safe.

 

[Poniegirl]

"More recent research, however, has traced a more likely cause to a biological process known as the hydration of CO2(g), carbon dioxide gas, to H2CO3(aq), carbonic acid. This process occurs on a cellular level. An enzyme known as carbonic anhydrase catalyzes the hydration of CO2(g) with H2O(l) to H2CO3(aq), carbonic acid. When this reaction is disturbed, however, CO2(g) is not converted into H2CO3(aq), thus leading to a buildup of carbon dioxide gas in the pouch tissues. The exact cause of the disruption of this process, however, remains unknown. In humans, stress can catalyze this type of problem, so stress may be a cause in seahorse gas imbalances."
This is quoted from S.O. I find the last sentence especially interesting.
They also discuss that pouch emphysema occurs more often in "virgin" males than those males who breed.
I also find it interesting that there has been no ill affect on the mated pair. Something about the set-up is only affecting this one seahorse. I believe in a lot of things, but coincidence is not one of them. It could very well be that he is predisposed to PE and it would happen no matter what you try.
Since you will need a separate tank to treat with diamox, can you move this male sooner?
I would also avoid any additives to his (any!) system. PH buffers are not a solution but a band-aid. Additionally, with additives, you can end up with a yo-yo effect that is extremely hard on fish. PH fluxuates more than we realize each and every day, naturally, depending upon lighting, temp, salinity. And remember, too, that seahorses in the wild live in some of the most transient waters, quality-wise.
Sorry so long-winded.
I don't think that mating your troubled horses is the immediate answer, but I would be quick to get him into as stress-free, stable-watered environment that you can provide.