Does UV really help to kill ich?

[sandwi54]

Hi, please follow my advice, IT WORKED FOR ME, it could work for you!
1) Buy Strees Coat, Dose as the bottle says!
2) ONLY turn on the Actinic lights!! for 3 to 4 days..
3)Check all you parameters, the most important one for me is the ALK!! low alk= PH swings= STRESS!!! if you have low alk, up it slowly.
4)Do not do any water changes for now!
5)Do not transfer to QT for now! More stress for them!
6)Buy good food!! and ad garlic and selcon! Feed, feed, feed!!! Pump there inmune system!!

Mike

This is not the advice to "kill" ich, only to "manage" it so that fish don't get heavy infestations. I'm sorry but you most likely have not eliminated ich in your system. The infestations are likely to be low enough that your fish are only getting infected in the gills and not on the bodies, and that's why you are not seeing the white ich spots and fooled into thinking that your fish are cured of ich.

Please read all of the ich stickies on this forum (or on the internet) and you will understand why "boosting fish's immune system" or "reducing stress" do not eliminate ich. There are many myths that have been scientifically proven to be wrong, such as "ich is always present in the system" or "ich is caused by stress on fish." It amazes me how people can believe that stress causes ich. Ich is an obligatory parasite; the tank either has it or it doesn't. In a tank without ich, the fish can get stressed all day long and not get ich, because... there's no ich!

Again, please do educate yourself about ich by reading the stickies and solve your own ich problem the right way: hyposalinity, copper, tank transfer.

 

[seahorsedreams]

We probably believe the same things, sandwi54, and I may just be a little confused by what you are saying. Some of your sentences put you in my arena, while others I'm not sure of.

There can be a low grade case in any tank that can go unnoticed. My volitans, I'm sure, is maintaining his own little population right now, that I can't see. When ever something stressful occurs, his immunity is reduced and all of a sudden he's infested. I actually don't treat him anymore. I just support him nutritionally and try to find what is stressing him out. 2 times it was a tank move, so that was easy to fix because there was no fix... just time. The second was a horrendous vibrating pump. When we put absorptive cushions under it, it went away.

The next "thing" that occurs, I'm sure he'll have it again. But I believe at this point, his own immunity causes it to not be so pathogenic to him.

 

[sandwi54]

We probably believe the same things, sandwi54, and I may just be a little confused by what you are saying. Some of your sentences put you in my arena, while others I'm not sure of.

There can be a low grade case in any tank that can go unnoticed. My volitans, I'm sure, is maintaining his own little population right now, that I can't see. When ever something stressful occurs, his immunity is reduced and all of a sudden he's infested. I actually don't treat him anymore. I just support him nutritionally and try to find what is stressing him out. 2 times it was a tank move, so that was easy to fix because there was no fix... just time. The second was a horrendous vibrating pump. When we put absorptive cushions under it, it went away.

The next "thing" that occurs, I'm sure he'll have it again. But I believe at this point, his own immunity causes it to not be so pathogenic to him.

Hi Renee, could you point out what I wrote confused you? This way I can address them easily.

Ich CAN often go unnoticed if the fish is healthy and stress is low. The reason is that the healthy slime coat prevents ich from penetrating through it and attach to the body tissue underneath, so there are no ich infestations on the body and hence no "white spots." however, fish's gills are very soft and unlike the body, are unprotected. it is easy for ich to penetrate the soft gill tissues and infect the fish. this fools aquarists into thinking that ich is gone, when in fact it is there and we just can't see it since it's microscopic. if the fish is healthy, it can fight off most of the attacks and only get minor infections. its gill movement may be fast or slow depending on the amount of infestations. the only way to truly tell is to look at a tissue sample under hte microscope.

What i stated above is the reason why i prophylactically treat EVERY single fish I buy. The majority of people only treat when they see symptoms, but given the specific characteristics of marine parasites (ich, velvet, etc.), i just don't trust a new fish at all. It may be harboring parasites and show absolutely no symptoms during the entire length of QT (6 weeks, 8 week, 3 months, you name it). I cannot feel safe about putting a new fish into my DT without it going through a rigorous 3-4 weeks of cupramine and 2 rounds of prazipro. True, the fish will get stressed out during the treatment, but that is one small price to pay than to introduce potential disease into the DT and having to treat the entire tank with 10 fish, and stressing everyone out.

Proper QT and prophylactic treatment are especially important for people who have large tanks and large number of fish. Having to catch fish in a large tank and treating all of them in a QT while trying to manage water quality issue is a huge PITA. I've gone through that before and lost half of my fish, and you cannot pay me to go through that again. you simply cannot pay me to risk my whole tank of beloved fish for one new fish, no matter how much i love him.

 

[MrTuskfish]

^^^^^^^I couldn't agree more. ^^^^^^

 

[seahorsedreams]

We believe exactly the same thing. You clarfied with your most recent post.

Except to add one point. The reason a low grade population can be tolerated, may also be due to having a partial immunity. I'm enjoying our Ich discussion today.

 

[MrTuskfish]

We believe exactly the same thing. You clarfied with your most recent post.

Except to add one point. The reason a low grade population can be tolerated, may also be due to having a partial immunity. I'm enjoying our Ich discussion today.

I agree, but I always have a problem with the question: "is the immunity permanent, if not, how long does it last?"?

 

[seahorsedreams]

Burgess and Matthew state it can last up to 6 months.

I'm not quoting articles to be "that" person. I'm just sharing sources as I know that can be part of the problem. Not everyone has access to the same readings. But even this stuff are author's interpretations of studies... they are just better trained and have access to different stuff, so I have to somewhat trust what peer reviewed academic readings say. What choice to we have, really.

 

[sandwi54]

Agreed. Though I think ich is easily treatable using the methods proven by the academia, i.e., Burgess. At least I never really had a problem, except for that singular hypo experience.

By the way, even though I believe in the "temporary immunity" thing, I don't really think it matters or helps us in any way, simply because we don't know if and which fish are going to develop it, and for how long. I simply treat every fish since that's the only way to cure ich 100%. I am an electrical engineer and that's just how I do things. When we design hardware, we try to leave no room for error and do not take chances. If we do, Murphy's Law always comes back and bite us.

 

[seahorsedreams]

Preaching to the choir LOL. look at my signature.... I'm never trying to get those fish back out for treatment!

I should have smelled (smelt?) the engineer on ya, my husband is one. I'm an ICU nurse, our brains click the same way.

 

[sandwi54]

Haha it's good to talk to people who think the same.

We are not too far from each other. maybe we'll meet on the road some day!

 

[snorvich]

I agree with Renee, sandwi54, and Mr.Tuskfish. My recollection on the temporary immunity thing is that it tops out at about 6 months. But, the immunity is selective and not general. It definitely does not happen to all fish in the tank which means some will be susceptible when others are temporarily not. I would certainly not want to roll the dice when there are proven treatment protocols. it is always so tempting to look for an easy solution (the silver bullet approach) but when you do, you risk your embedded base of fish.

 

[seahorsedreams]

They've had a little success with vaccination... would THAT be nice. I bet this recession has suppressed SO much juicy research due to tight funds *sigh*

 

[MrTuskfish]

Although there has been a small amount of published info on marine ich; I think we are still dealing with a protozoan about which we really know very little. Because this isn't a parasite that affects people, and our little SW community is rather tiny, its doubtful we will ever have much real scientific literature. Dedicated scientists (Burgess, et al) and ambitious PhD candidates are few and far between. With such a small pool of researchers, their findings are seldom disputed. So, we must rely on sharing and sorting anecdotal evidence to really know our adversary. Common sense is also a valuable tool that seems to get lost in our hobby from time-to-time as well. Bottom line (IMO): forums and discussions like this are invaluable.

 

[seahorsedreams]

May I jump in respectfully here. There is practically zero info about Ich as it pertains to our hobby. There is tons of it in the aquaculture sector, albeit the focus has been on freshwater ich as that is the bulk of the food fish industry. Ich is responsible for the number one loss of fish in aquaculture and really has been studied well. Where we haven't made the jump, is from "what we know" to "how to apply it". They have the info on how to kill it, it's just difficult to implement it in their flow through, net pen, aquaculture type systems. The info is there... we just need to go get it.

The problem in our hobby is there is too much variable with the life cycle of Ich, that's where our issues lie, IMO. If we don't know the exact day of the vulnerable stage, and it can be from a couple of days to a couple of months, has has a 24 hour survival period.... no wonder our experiences are so random. What worked for one that "hatched" in a couple of days, may not work for the one that hatched at day 72 soley based on timing. Treatment plans are going to have different success and fail rates because of this variable time limit. If all parasites were vulnerable at say, day 5, we would have the problem knocked.

The problem really has been solved in our area. We know how to kill them and we have the means to do so, we just don't want to do it. Treat all fish with recognized proven treatment in a QT tank and leave tank fallow to allow for the maximum life cycle of parasite. That really does solve the problem. What we DON'T know and what we are looking for, is the EASY way to treat this. If the solution was to pour the medicine in our display tanks, this would never be a problem. But where the solution involves SO much more, then that's our faults it's a problem, not the lack of knowledge.

 

[sandwi54]

Well said Renee! The reason why most hobbyists refuse to properly QT and treat new fish, or treating existing fish that have ich, is because it's a lot of work and they don't want to go through the trouble. It's often after a hobbyist loses hundreds of dollars of fish that he starts realizing that this "trouble" is needed.

 

[Paul B]

The reason a low grade population can be tolerated, may also be due to having a partial immunity.

I also think they can have full immunity, forever, not just six months.
I also believe you can have ich in your tank forever and not have a problem with it, ever.
As for scientific research, that is also true that little is known about the disease although we think we know everything about a paracite, we know very little. Yes we know how many days it needs to go through it's cycles at a certain temperature, we know what kills it and what does not. But we don't know anything about a fishes immunity from it.
I personally know that fish can become immune, but I don't know how.
I do know that my fish are immune from ich, but as I said, I am not sure why.
They have to be immune or I have to be very lucky. I have not quarantined anything in 30 years and I add animals from many sources even the sea. I also add mud from the sea for the bacteria. I have no hospital tank and not needed one in decades. Why? I don't know.
I think it is because of the health of my fish that they achieve from the nutrition I give them. To me it is live food or more specifically fish oil.
I could be wrong but some of my fish are 17 years old and still spawning. None of my fish die of disease, they either have an accident like jumping out or getting stuck in a powerhead which the screen fell off or I give them away to a public aquarium if they get too mean or large.
I know it is not because of my Under gravel filter so I can only come up with the fishes own immune system.
I feel very strongly that if our fish are in spawning condition, they will not succumb to ich. I welcome any and all theories as to why my fish and other hobbiests fish do not get ich, ever. I am not talking about a couple of months or a few years, I am talking decades.
By the way, I also enjoy this thread. :beer:

 

[sandwi54]

I don't know, Paul. Maybe you were just REALLY lucky. I mean, anything is possible right? If someone could win the mega-million lottery that has the probability of 1 out of 176,000,000, then I don't see how someone could not luck out the entire length of the hobby for 30 years.

We are aware that many hobbyists such as you have not had a problem with ich, ever, but for every one of you, there are tens or hundreds more that had tank wipe-outs from not quarantining. Thus, our purpose is not to debate whether a QT is needed or how lucky a person is, but rather try to make this hobby as successful as possible for everyone. We are recommending ways to guarantee near 100% success rate (because we have all tried them over the years and know they work) and hoping that hobbyists can follow them to minimize fish loss and maximize enjoyment in this hobby. I hate to see people leaving this hobby out of frustration, and at the same time, I also wish the proper quanrantine techniques can be more widely spread to the general public so more people could practice them.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Not taking away from your husbandry skills, Paul, but I think you've been very lucky as well. I do respect your observations and disagree with a few; but something we both know is that if ich isn't in a tank, a fish can't get it. Obvious, but often ignored.

If, as Renee suggested, everyone would use what we do know----this section of our forum would be a barren place. The overwhelming number of problems posted here could have been prevented by a good QT regimen. This discussion could (and should) go on indefinitely; but there will always be plenty of folks who hold out for the "reef-safe' kills everything powder or ignore any and all advice to use a QT. I've finally gotten to the point where I'm willing to post what I've always known. I agree with Fenner; if you don't have and use a QT----this hobby isn't for you.

 

[seahorsedreams]

There are lots of studies about immunity. I'll see if I can pull some specific quotes. I have a ton of books and journals. They are not online, however, which makes them difficult to share.

But first..... a have a couple of gift cards I would like to cash in on!

This could be a great discussion.... until the first grumpy person comes in. I'm not here to prove anything. I'm not making any wild claims. Just sharing my books that I love so much.

 

[Paul B]

We are aware that many hobbyists such as you have not had a problem with ich, ever, but for every one of you, there are tens or hundreds more that had tank wipe-outs from not quarantining. Thus, our purpose is not to debate whether a QT is needed or how lucky a person is, but rather try to make this hobby as successful as possible for everyone.

Sandwi54, I am also trying to make this hobby successful and I think quarantining is great but I also feel that "along" with quarantining we can get our animals in a condition where they do not even get ich just in case our quarantining is not successful. I can't quarantine even if I wanted to due to the NSW, rocks, mud and animals I add but at one time I also had to. That was before I spent a lifetime SCUBA diving to learn everything I could about these animals. I learned that they eat mostly whole fish, and in whole fish is the guts which IMO is where the secret is to get their immune system in such a state that they do not get ich.
I am not a lucky kind of guy, I was in 2 helocopter crashes, my Dad died when I was 10 and my wife of 38 years is very sick. I don't do luck well so I am sure my tank is not healthy because I am so lucky
But if I am lucky, then we all could be just as lucky as soon as we figure out why "some" tanks are not bothered by ich.
I am curious, does anyone have a fish that is actively spawning "and" has ich?
A fish that is spawning or at least in spawning condition is in the best condition that it will ever be in. Only very healthy fish can spawn because it is a huge burden on a fish to develop a spawn that is about a third of it's weight and almost all oil. If a fish can do this, it's immune system is also in the best shape it will ever be in. In this shape, ich is not a problem.
Isn't it better to not have to worry or even think about ich than to worry about how long it's cycle is? how to kill it? or how to cure it?
So much time and money is spent on ich cures and to me that money can be better be spent on getting the fish in a condition where you never worry about ich or any other disease.
It costs me practically nothing to feed my fish a few live worms and fresh clams every day along with some fish oil soaked pellets.
I know it sounds wierd and to simple but believe me I have had more cases of ich over the years than all of you put together. That all stopped when I learned the secret, (not when I got lucky)
Fish in the sea eat whole fish like the fry to the left of this nurse shark, so quarantine your fish but also get them into spawning condition with the proper food every day
Just my opinion.