Dosing aspartic acid

[JRF]

Thanks, I will try that!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, it also dissolves more and faster if you warm the water.

 

[JRF]

Roger Roger !!

 

[rkb]

1 g of aspartic acid dissolves in about 222 mL of water at 20 deg C. So it is farily insoluble, but will dissolve. Try fresh water instead of tank water.

This is 250ml of tap water nuked in the microwave to a boil, one Salifert spoonful of aspartic acid added and stirred for about 2 minutes.

I then transferred the solution to another container and cooled to approximately tank temp of 25c to see if the aspartic acid remained in solution or precipitated out.

I could not detect any precipitation after this short test.

 

[DeathWish302]

I'm going to start dosing aspartic once a week and my hope is that over a weeks time the dose will have slowly leeched the AA into the water. I'm unsure of this but hopeful. My question is- Is the powder pure aspartic acid or is there a small amount of the acid combined with some other ingredient to add bulk or stability? Hopefully the later is the case and the aspartic acid is dissolve away from whatever it's combined with and can enter the water.

Or perhaps we are just adding to our sand beds:spin1:

I would question the ingredients in your aspartic acid. I found a site that claimed 100% pharm-grade AAs'. Were they 100% AA...I don't know for sure? I'll have to search that site up....maybe RedfishSC remebers as he was on that discussion.

(Dang...Randy beat me to the punch)...I have read up on the solubility of Aspartic Acid and have found a range of 4-5.2g/L solubility @ 25C. If it's anything like dissolving sodium bicarbonate/carbonate before heating the water, I can imagine it would be a painfully long mixing process.

Regardless keep up the experimentation, as this is the only way we will advance in caring for our organisms in glass boxes. I've been trying to burn the proverbial box myself and have found that there are too few on this bandwagon.

Good Luck!:thumbsup::beachbum:

 

[chark]

Any updates?

 

[rkb]

Any updates?

- the tanks consumption of two part is steady at 40ml per day vs the 30ml prior to the addition of aspartic acid.

- no noticable increase in algea

- still maintaining good growth on many of my SPS colonies. It's difficult to tell an increase in growth on clams or LPS.

- fish, shrimp, crabs etc. seem uneffected.

I'll dose again on Wednesday and this time do so by heating the water and disolving the AA vs letting it disolve on it's own in the overflow.

- do have a colony of GSP that are acting a bit flakey, but I doubt that has anything to do with the addition of aspartic acid.

Cheers
Russell

 

[Sig45]

I started dosing Asp acid as well about 2 weeks ago. I also noted increased growth in days on my milli's and thinner branched acros. I had a M. spongodes STN, but other frags of same coral doing fine(??)
I dose 1/8 tsp twice a week for TWV of 170gal.
Coloration unchanged. Using Zeo(+ Pohls xtra) with daily fish feedings and twice weekly OSI zooplankton powder.
will update as progress noted.

 

[jlinzmaier]

rkb,

Good to hear your results. I am interested to hear how prolonged usage works out for you. Keep us posted, especially if negative results occur. Different carbon sources may induce different results in different coral. I believe a little aspartic acid goes a long way like you are currently doing. Overdosing may lead to problems. Problems could be seen as tissue necrosis in your coral. If you see this I would back off or stop altogether.

Cliff.

Your comments here made a light go on in my head!!!

I started dosing aspartic acid in mid February. I have a 200 gal system and like rbk I was interested in getting away from the commercial AA concoctions so I tested out aspartic acid dosing. I started dosing 1/4 tsp mixed in about 500ml of RO/DI water. In the first two weeks I saw spectacular results. The SPS polyp ext was better than ever, the feeder polyp ext at night was like I had never seen before and I had less nuisance algea growing than when I was dosing the Zeovit AAHC supplement.

Even after 5 years of (what I consider) being a knowledgeable and successful reefer with quite successful reef tanks, you'd think I would have learned that "more" isn't always better. Oh I was so wrong!! After seeing such spectacular results from dosing 1/4 tsp aspartic acid once weekly for a few weeks I thought I'd take it up a notch and move to 1/4 tsp three times weekly. Three times as much equals three times the benefit right??? NO!!!! In the first week of dosing three times weekly the tank seemed fine and continued to show very nice polyp ext and superb feeder polyp ext at night. After about two weeks I noticed some corals (LPS and SPS) lost that nice diurnal polyp ext and nocturnal feeder polyp ext that I was so impressed with initially. I didn't think much of it and continued to dose 1/4 tsp three times weekly (sometimes 4 times weekly).

After a few weeks of that aspartic acid dosing regimen I began to see some significantly increased cyano growth (I had never had cyano growth before). I also noticed my algea turf scrubber wasn't growing much algae anymore. The tank looked clean and I had no other nuisance algea growth so I didn't initially look to the aspartic acid dosing as being a problem. Over the next week I began to see little to no polyp extension in my SPS (day or night) my LPS were shriveling and most LPS were retracting their tissue entirely. At the same time I was starting dosing the aspartic acid I was also experimenting a bit with slow adjustments to my alk level in an attempt to maximize coral growth. (I know. Another rediculous practice - making more than one change at a time is a really poor idea. I'll eventually learn!) I initially blamed the coral stress on the alk adjustment I had made so I took a few days to back it down to where it was (initial adjustment was only going from 8 dkh to 9.5 dkh over about a weeks time). After several more days the corals were still looking rough with little to know polyp ext, almost all LPS had retracted tissue entirely, some SPS were showing tissue loss at tips, some SPS were showing tissue loss in odd areas, and a few corals began showing signs of significant tissue loss. At this point I was beginning to think I might actually lose some entire colonies.

With such a critical event going on I started at square one. I stopped dosing the aspartic acid, increased indirect for in the entire tank, used double the carbon I typically use, started target feeding the LPS in an attempt to get them to open up a bit, did four 30 gal water changes over a week and a halfs time, did a wide range of testing (all came back normal), and started feeding more reef chili to provide further nutrition for the corals to regain strength and overcome whatever was going on. I also dipped some corals in revive and lugols solution to be sure I didn't have any sort of parasite causing trouble (no nasty critters found). After two weeks I began to see most of my LPS expand again, most of my SPS began to show at least a little polyp ext at night, the cyano was going away, most of the SPS colonies that were showing such severe stress and tissue loss seemed to stop losing tissue and at least seemed to be keeping the tissue that was left, and some SPS colonies simply continued to lose tissue until nothing was left.

At that point I realized that what I was seeing was quite similar to how my tank reacted when I was using the zeo system and stripped the nutrients from the water column to aggressively (by unknowingly dosing too much of the carbon source). I began to wonder if the the aspartic acid was causing this. I was a bit confusted though becuase I was entirely under the impression that the aspartic acid was a source of only nitrates (not a carbon source) and if I were to see any negative reactions it would likely be excess nuisance algea growth and/or browning of the corals (typical signs of excess nitrates). Then I came across this thread and BINGO!!!! I hadn't realized the aspartic acid served as a carbon source and could excessively fuel the growth of bacteria. I'm quite certain that my aspartic acid dosing fueld the overpopulation of nitrifying bacteria and stirpped my water column too clean therefore causing the same reaction like when I had been dosing too much of the carbon source from the zeo regimen. Since there isn't a great bit of detail to how corals symbiotic bacteria and the other bacteria they come in contact with or have some metabolic realtionship with, the overdosing of the carbon source may not be entirely attributed to stripping nutrients too fast but rather fueling the growth of bacteria the corals are exposed to which then causes some sort of harm to the coral.

Regardless, Wow!! I hadn't even thought of the idea that the aspartic acid can be a carbon source for bacterial growth. I still have some corals that need to come around, but nearly all are showing signs of improvement, there is no further cyano growth, and in general the tank is coming back to life.

To important lessons for even those of us who are a bit more experienced than others:

More isn't always better!!

And

Never make more than one change at a time!!
By spending time monkeying around with backing my alk level back down, I wasted valuable time and continued dosing "the problem" while I waited for the tank to respond to the return to normal alk level which wasn't the problem in the first place. Had I not made both changes at the same time, I would have stopped the aspartic acid dosing as my first means of getting things back to normal.

After a few months of getting things healthy and back to normal I may try some very small aspartic acid dosing but I think I'll judge the dosing more carefully by the presence of cyano growth and even more closely monitoring the PE of the corals. The limited PE was the first negative reaction I saw after I increased the aspartic acid dosing.

Jeremy

 

[sjt7]

Hey Russel, i didn't know you started a thread about this. I am following the same regiment and am having very similar results. After a couple of weeks I tested my parameters and my alk had dropped to 5 dkh and cal down to 380. I have slowly raised them back to normal and it is taking me 90ml to maintain them at what had been maintained at 60ml. Now that I have gotten my alk and cal stable I have noticed great polyp extension in all of my corals and my birdsnest has showed significant growth.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Jeremy,

Sorry to hear the negative results.

There has been a few recent research projects completed regarding the effects of increased DOC on coral and the negative results that appear at too high a levels. Much of the research was completed on simply the total DOC & not differentitating the different types. To add to the complication, they now believe that there are interactions between the different types of DOC that may act together to cause negative results. Needless to say, it is a very complicated subject and will lead to very expensive testing down the road, as the scientists learn to differentiate the DOC through new test methods.

It's not surpising that many hobbyists are pushing the edge to achieve better coral growth and color. The same applies when hobbyists dose heavy metals, FWIW.

This is one of the articles:

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and
microbial activity in coral mortality
http://phage.sdsu.edu/research/pdf/Kline - DOC and coral death 5-24-06.pdf

From this article:

DISCUSSION
DOC is a critical substrate for microbial growth.
Although many of the microbes associated with corals
are found in the mucus layer, much of the mucusassociated
carbon is in a refractory form that is not
available for microbial growth (Herndl & Velimirov
1986, Wild et al. 2004). Our observation that DOC
loading causes significant coral mortality and increasing
microbial growth rates by an order of magnitude
suggests that SML-associated microbes are carbonlimited.
The addition of simple sugars directly increases
the amount of labile DOC, and one possibility
is that it enables microbes to break down more complex
and previously unavailable carbon sources via
co-metabolism (Azam et al. 1993). Healthy corals
actively control the growth rate of their associated
microbes (Ducklow & Mitchell 1979, Breitbart et al.
2005), and DOC additions may disrupt the normal
mechanisms of control. Elevated microbial growth
rates likely cause coral death by oxygen depletion,
accumulation of poisons (e.g. hydrogen sulphide or
secondary metabolites) and/or microbial predation on
weakened coral polyps (Segel & Ducklow 1982).

 

[HighlandReefer]

IMHO, since hobbyists feed different foods at different rates and no doubt have different kinds of DOC and different amounts, the dosage rate for an amino acid like aspartic acid will be quite different for every tank. I would assume that the correct dosage level will be small and overdosing could be achieved easily. Therefore any increase in the amount of aspartic acid should be very slow and careful observations of the polyps (such as color and tissue regression) should be monitored very carefully. I would also assume that any other carbon dosing such as vodka, sugar, vinegar & vitamin C may reduce the amount of aspartic acid you can dose.

To add to the above, if a hobbyist decides to dose heavy metals (micro-nutrients) this will greatly add to the possible complications, since the heavy metals show the same results as does DOC at higher levels. Systems like Zeovit, definitely push the edge between colorful, fast growing coral and coral that will die or suffer tissue necrosis. :lol:

 

[teesquare]

Great input Cliff!
Just a question: Can we assume that this supports the "too much of a good thing" philosophy?
I ask because it is hard to question the initial aesthetic impact of a tank being run via ULN/organic carbon dosing.......BUT - is it the "razor's edge" that one walks along when using these methods?
T

 

[jlinzmaier]

Can we assume that this supports the "too much of a good thing" philosophy?

No doubt in my mind!!!

Cliff.
Thanks so much for the spectacular reply with detailed info on what research is out there on DOC levels and the relationship to coral health!!!

Your extremely helpful and I appreciate you digging up that article with such precise detail to the subject. There really is a great deal of testing that needs to be done and it may be decades before we really know what carbon dosing and amino acid dosing really does inside our little glass boxes. In the meantime, I very much agree that dosing of heavy metals and amino acids is likely best judged by the corals reactions negative or positive. Unfortunately sometimes it takes the animals a while to "catch up" and show a reaction to what had been dosed the previous week or two before. That often leads to a delay in correcting the problem while corals continue to exhibit continued stress and/or death. All the more reason to take dosing of any supplement very slowly and deliberately (and only one change at a time - LOL!)

Thank you very much!

Jeremy

 

[HighlandReefer]

Your welcome.

Yes, Jeremy's unfortunate incident does point out that too much of a good thing can be detrimental as with many aspects of our hobby.

Hobbyists have been adding carbon sources for quite some time now and we are beginning to see the lines when dosing vodka, vinegar and sugar. As hobbyists experiment with many of the amino acids we will discover the lines and better recommendations relating to how one should safely dose them. We frequently have hobbyists who overdose carbon sources with negative results. Many hobbyists say we are playing with fire, which should not be taken lightly. :lol:

Unfortunately, we do not have test kits to determine the levels of various carbon sources. We are unable to see what is going on in the tissues of coral regarding the symbiotic algae and bacterial populations & if they should shift in species. We notice tissue necrosis, but that is in essence too late, the damage is done. One can only back off the amount one doses at that point. Without proper tools to analyze what exactly is going on we are shooting in the dark.

IMHO, dosing amino acids, vitamin C & many other carbon sources should be left to experienced hobbyists who have a good understanding of what is going on. Certainly one can have a beautiful "Tank of the Month" by simply maintaining good husbandry and adding the basic nutrients.

For those hobbyists who wish to push the limits of our current knowledge, I commend them and look forward to what they discover, both good and bad.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Jeremy,

You may find these articles interesting:

Biosynthesis of "˜ essential ' amino acids by scleractinian corals
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1218179&blobtype=pdf

From it:

"Conclusions
In summary, all ®ve species of scleractinian corals tested could
synthesize at least 16 of the 20 protein amino acids, eight of
which are essential in other Metazoa examined so far. It remains
to be determined whether attached or coelenteric bacteria are
responsible for some of the synthesis. Even if bacteria are in
fact responsible for the synthesis, however, this ®nding is
signi®cant from an ecological-unit perspective. If coral gut
bacteria or bacterial endosymbionts regularly convert sugars
(which reef corals receive from their zooxanthellae) into amino
acids, and if corals have access to bacterial products (e.g. digestion
of bacteria or bacterial excretion of amino acids into the
coelenteron), then in a functional sense corals have a previously
unaccounted-for source of protein and amino acids. Despite the
apparent ability of corals to synthesize some essential amino
acids, rates of amino acid synthesis seem to be greater for those
amino acids that are typically non-essential, and slower for
those amino acids that are typically essential, with the exception
of histidine. The role of synthesis in satisfying metabolic requirements
for ` essential ' amino acids still needs to be determined."


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/211/6/860

From it:

"In summary, our results show that DFAA can represent an
important source of nitrogen for corals at in situ concentrations
(200"“500·nmol·l"“1), with uptake rates as high as those measured for
DIN at the same concentrations. DFAA uptake by Stylophora
pistillata shows no discrimination, allowing the uptake of any
available amino acid through the animal membranes, depending on
the DFAA concentration in the surrounding water. A "˜light-enhanced
amino acid assimilation' process (Al-Moghrabi et al., 1993) has been
confirmed, suggesting DFAA uptake is a diurnal event."

 

[jlinzmaier]

Thanks Cliff.

Appreciate your attention to the subject!

Jeremy

 

[feel-os25at]

sorry multi post, I don't understand

 

[feel-os25at]

Aspartam ?

Aspartam ?

Hello Cliff, hello Randy
What about aspartam?
I would try but ...

 

[feel-os25at]

acid aspartic, phénylalanine and méthanol but how to beguin ? How to try ? If you think I can try this.
Thanks