Dosing pump ???????

T

TandN

New member
Ok as soon as I get the controller working I am gonna work on setting up the dosing pumps. I have a few questions I would like to get out of the way before doing so though. I dont know if it standard practince but, Mine did not come with any tubing.

1. So what tubing do I need ?

I have 4 heads on my dosing pump. One I want to use as a top off. Another one I want to feed my calcium reactor. And the other 2 I want to use for Automatic water changes. So

2. What is the max. Height I can put the dosing pumps away from where the stuff is gonna be ?

I ask that because the drain in the closet is 5' from the floor. And I am guessing that the dosing pump unit has to be above it to work properly is that correct ?

As I stated I want to use 2 of the pumps for water changes. To do this do I need 2 float valves ? I never seen a optical before are they better ?

Last question now. Will it work as a feed pump for my calcium reactor or should I just use a seprate pump ?
 
Standard airline tubing will work fine. I ordered black neoprene tubing but that was me just being picky.

The dosing pumps will draw from just about anywhere. I have successfully drawn water through 25' of tubing with no problem.

You don't need float valves for the auto water changes, just auto top off.

Set the two pumps to each draw the same ml from thier respective source and you are good to go.
 
Thank you :) Ok One thing though it shouldnt matter if the drain for the tank water was above the dosing pump correct ? I want to place my dosing pumps where my sump and water change tank is and the drain is about 2-3 feet above there.
 
This has nothing to do with the quality of the pump, but please consider this:

As someone who has just completed a 6 month run with a 4 channel pump to do auto water changes on a 120, I have to warn that the amounts that I was able to replace on a daily basis proved to be insignificant over that period of time.

I used all 4 channels (2 out and 2 in). And pushing the pump to it's limits gave me an exchange of 2.5 gallons/day. So over a 2 week period, that's a total exchange of 35 gallons. As that total would appear to be significant, and give the appearance of a substantial WC every 2 weeks, it is in fact a misrepresentation of what is truly taking place.

You need to consider that exchanging water at these rates on a tank volume this size and over an 8 hour period per day, is much like walking up to the tank each hour for 8 hours and replacing a cupful of water. The impact it has on exporting nutrients is neglible in the long run.....even in the short run. You also have to consider the continuous buildup of nutrients and the fact that you are also removing a percentage of the new water you put in.

I've witnessed this for myself and made the mistake of stopping massive water changes all together. And in 6 months, I saw a significant increase in nitrates, no doubt (although difficult to measure) an increase in phosphates. The livestock in my tank began to suffer accordingly. I lost much of it.

As for the pump itself, it did everything I asked it to do. It's a little workhorse. But it was necessary to pull it from the task at hand since I realized through trial and error that a tank this size (120 gal) with it's current bio-load (medium) was significantly more than the pump could handle in the water exchange dept.

I've actually discussed this with Anthony Calfo at an event recently. I was basing my setup of this pump on a previous talk about small frequent water changes. But as he explained, a 10% weekly all-at-once water change is not the same as doing it until it adds up to 10% over the same period. In fact, the latter is more like not doing it all.

Just something to consider from someone who has been there.
 
well jdjeff58, you just busterd my bubble :c(

my dosser is on it's way now and the AWC was one of the primary function of this unit!!!
 
I certainly wasn't intending to break anyone's bubble. When I thought about the possibility to do water changes pretty much without lifting a finger, the idea got me so wound up that I failed to realize how little impact these kinds of WC's would have.

Just trying to save someone alot of aggravation. As a few people mentioned to me and I refused to listen, "you really should do a larger water change at least monthly". I thought, "why?". 2 1/2 gal/day x 30 is 75 gal. Well, it is and it isn't.
 
There is actually a way to calculate what a continuous method of water changes equates to in terms of one single large water change. For the example jdjeff58 gave (35 gallons of a 120 gallon tank every 2 weeks), the water change percent is equal to 100-100*e^(35/120) = 25.3% water change. This is opposed to the 29.2% water change you'd have if you removed 35 gallons from the tank once every 2 weeks.

So, yes doing continuous water changing is less efficient than large batch changing methods. But, there isn't really that much of a difference. Certainly, the ease of doing this and the lack of stress imparted on the inhabitants from larger water changes is worth it. I've done this myself for several months before and never noticed a problem or significant difference from doing large water changes.

Here's some reading:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php#4
 
It is worth noting that you will see more of a difference between continuous water changing and single large batch changing if you are accustomed to doing really large water changes. So for instance, if you were to do 50% every two weeks, you would only have the equivalent of a 39% water change if you did it continuously. A 75% water change every two weeks would only be 53% if done continuously. So, the gain does drop off if you are trying for much larger percentages of water changes. However, if you need to do such large water changes, perhaps there is something else wrong.
 
I guess my arguement is that in order to do CWC's with this dosing pump, you have to work within the limitations of the pump. To do this, you need to set up the timer and gradually exchange (in my example) 2.5 gal in an 8 hour period/day.

I think you're calculations, which I have seen before in the article, apply to doing a one time exchange of 2.5 gallons/day. 2.5 out and 2.5 in. As I said before, doing it gradually over the eight hour period means there are other factors to be figured in. You are removing some of the water you put in 8 times/day, thus diluting that number even more. And are the calculations based on a zero bioload?

I wholeheartedly agree, that with the right size pump for the task, your system would benefit. But the advertised limitations of this pump say it shouldn't pump for more than 10 or 11 minutes at a time. Edited: 10 or 11 minutes was my setup to maximize pump life. This is right out of the manual "Important hint: While programming it must be assured that the pumps run for max. 15 minutes continuously, the
subsequent pause must be at least as long as the previous duty cycle!".

This is the part I missed when doing all the figuring to set this pump up. Ideally, pumping in/out all the intended exchange water in one stroke would be the way to go.
 
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The key is knowing the quantity and frequency of water changes you need for your tank. You have to compare the calculation with what you would actually perform if you were to do single batch water changes. It accounts for the fact that you are removing some of what you put in, thus the decrease in efficiency. You're absolutely right that you have to consider the limitations of the dosing unit. There is a point where you can have a tank and bioload that is simply too large for this dosing unit to provide sufficient water exchange.

In my case, I have a 70 gallon tank with sump. I'd say there probably is about 70 gallons total water in my system. So, if I were to use the total 1.25 gallons per day that I could get out of using 2 dosing pumps (1 in, 1 out), I would have the equivalent of doing one 39% water change each month, or one 22% water change every two weeks. That is just about where I figure I need it. If, however, my bioload and feeding required me to perform 20% water changes every week, I would be falling well short of that goal.

I look at it this way. I have a past of being very inconsistent with my water changes. I would probably average out to doing quite a bit less than 20% every other week if left to my own devices. The continuous water exchange method provides me a way to get that 20% with reliability since it is so easy. If I ever run into a situation where I need to change a lot of water at once, that is what I'll do.
 
"I think you're calculations, which I have seen before in the article, apply to doing a one time exchange of 2.5 gallons/day. "

The calculation actually applies to doing an infinite number of infinitesimally sized water changes (ie. continuous). The situation with these pumps, if anything, is slightly better than changing continuously.
 
Yes....size is everything here. Rate of increase in your nutrients is a huge factor too. I'm not disputing frequent small changes. It's a lovely idea and for 6 months I sat on my rear end while this little pump was doing all the work. That being said, my water volume is ~140 gal under a medium bioload. And in 6 months, my nitrates climbed to 10ppm. Previous to that they were a solid zero. I'm seeing some resultant effects of elevated phosphate levels as well.

As for the second part about infinitesimile size and amounts. All I was saying that if you break up a daily water change into smaller changes to add up to say 2.5 gal, that 2.5 gal will be diluted as well as the overall WC in a 2 week period will be. And the effects of bio-load should decrease it's significance even more. That's my only gripe with those calculations.

These pumps run at a fixed 60ml/min. If I run that pump for the max 15 min that's 900 ml. By the instructions, that pump has to rest for 15 minutes before it can run again. So, it will take 45 minutes to exchange 900ml of water. Add another 15 minutes for the second rest (before you can start pumping again), that's an hour before you can go to work on the next 900ml. I really think that those times and amounts are not conducive of 'effective' water changes.....even with a 4 channel pump like I have. I have seen the results of it.
 
Hey guys quite the debate here lmao. I have a fellow member here helping me out ALOT. And he explained something to me about this. He told me do not use the dosing pumps for AWC. It is a waste to use them for dosing as there meant to. That indeed to just to get 2 float valves and 2 maxijets (or another pump) and program the float valves and ppumps to do waterchanges for you instead of over using the dosing pumps which are very expensive to use for this and overrwork them that they will break alot faster then they shold do to the large workloadd you will have to put on them to do the waterchanges for us. Which made ALOT of sense. I dont wanna give there name out he/she can comment about it and offer there help themselves I dont wanna offer there help myself for them lol. But basically they said ust the pump in figure out how much your looking to change and program the profulix to do it. HTH
 
I agree with that, Tanya. The pump did everything I asked it to do, but it just ain't cuttin' it for WC's in my 120.
 
Auto water change - NO

Auto top up - YES

Calcium and kalk dosing - YES

Nutrient dosing - YES

Mineral dosing - YES

Any dosing you like to be honest just not auto water change as the amount of water required is too great for ANY doser.

Use a maxi jet!
 
So what would be the maximum amount of water that you'd recommend running through the doser everyday? I figure that for my situation 1.25 gallons (4750 mL) a day would be sufficient for continuous water changing system. That's well within the theoretical maximum based on the instructions (43,200 mL, from 60mL/min with 15min on and 15min off). Also, there are a lot of people that have to deal with more evaporation per day than 1.25 gallons...
 
You can run them continuous if you wish but as mentioned above will reduce the life span of the pump

60ML/Minute giving pauses every 15 minutes for 10-15 minutes
 
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