dosing vodka to bring down N and P

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The other thing is, I have several times heard bioballs referred to as a "phosphate factory".

I've never heard that, only "nitrate factory".

To generate phosphate, it would mean accumulating detritus that might otherwise be skimmed out or otherwise removed, that slowly breaks down, releasing phosphate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are still some other points why an aerobic filter should not be good in a reef tank.


With the exception of the nitrogen phosphate possible imbalance, I didn't gather any problems from what you said. I think reducing organics is a good thing, not a bad one. So if nitrate is not elevated, I don't see a problem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, do you think dosing Iron would increase the available nitrogen? What would be a safe dose?

I dose iron, as detailed in these articles, but I do not think it will increase nitrogen, but rather possibly spur algal growth and reduce it. While it might spur cyano to fix nitrogen, it also spurs algae that use nitrogen. I've not seen any evidence that cyano fix (and release) enough nitrogen to generate elevated nitrate in aquaria.

FWIW, I disagree with Bombers statement in that link that nitrogen cannot be limiting in reef aquaria. Some folks here have 1 + ppm phosphate. Do people think that phosphate is limiting in such a case?

First Iron Article: Macroalgae and Dosing Recommendations
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

Second Iron Article: Iron: A Look at Organisms Other than Macroalgae
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm

 

[Xx_de_xX]

Can the air a skimmer pulls through a venturi be the source of Nitrogen? Considering that Nitrogen makes up 78.09% of "air?" Basically, I'm just wondering if Nitrogen can be dissolved in sea water.

 

[wasp]

The problem I have with that is that it is nitrogen gas, not nitrate, so not so sure if it would be as directly useful.
But Randy would know more.

 

[reefsrus]

I think im going to start dosing, as soon as i go pick up a bottle, but i was think about just dosing in cycles with small doses. Like a drop or a couple of drops each day to start and do it everyday. Or whatever you guys think would be a good amount to start. For say 2 weeks or month, then hold off for a month. Then start the cycle right back over. Does this defeat the purpose of it? Once i stop will the phosphates be back in the next day or so? Or will they only come back gradually as i add them to the tank, like when i feed?

 

[Xx_de_xX]

You'll prolly get to it before I will- I just dumped a bunch of bioballs in the sump today to start the nitrate factory going. I'll wait until I have sufficient nitrate for me to start dosing. Keep us updated. I plan on doing logbook. Visual and Chemical changes.

 

[wasp]

Just put bioballs in mine too.
So I'm picking it will only be a few weeks to see if this will actually work in practise or not.
Not sure the time frame, but I'm expecting to see nitrate become detectable, and then hoping the macro algae will take off, and perhaps skimming increase due to greater phyto growth.
And ultimately, P go to levels at which I do not have to use chemical media.
Here's hoping, anyway.

And reefsrus, vodka works in some tanks, but not others. Do you have detectable nitrate? Let's know how it goes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can the air a skimmer pulls through a venturi be the source of Nitrogen? Considering that Nitrogen makes up 78.09% of "air?" Basically, I'm just wondering if Nitrogen can be dissolved in sea water.

There is lots of dissolved N2 in your aquarium, but it is not usable by most organisms (including algae and corals). Among the very few nitrogen fixers are cyanobacteria, although I do not know if they ever bother to fix nitrogen if there is measurable nitrate around.

I think im going to start dosing, as soon as i go pick up a bottle, but i was think about just dosing in cycles with small doses.

Dosing what? Sodium nitrate, or something similar? That is a fine experiment, IMO. Don't overdose.

2-3 weeks is a fine time frame to see if any of these ideas has desirable benefits, IMO.

 

[reefsrus]

Well, i ended up picking up a bottle today. But, i wondering if any brand will do.? I just picked up a cheap brand that ran 5 bucks for a 1/5 called vladimir vodka, is there any difference in effects it will have on your tank from the more expensive brands? Or will every vodka have the same effect?

Btw: I threw a 1ml in today, just to get the stuff in my system, what do you work for a normal daily doseage for a 75 gallon tank? I was thinking about dropping it to 1/3 or 1/2 ml each day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah, OK. You mean vodka dosing. We had just been talking about nitrate dosing, so I got confused. I don't have a recommended amount, so I'll leave that to others that use and recommend its addition.

 

[reefsrus]

Do you know if it really matters what kind you use, will even the cheap ones work?

 

[reefsrus]

disregard that last post, after reading through the thread on nano-reef it turns out that the experiment was conducted with cheap vodka like i bought. So im pretty sure now it doesnt matter.

 

[alanseah]

for my cases it's the other way round.. I have been dosing vodka for a month to 2.. and dont seen any improvement in result or any changes...
my n03 and phosphate is still dectable... then I came along poly filter and I throw 1 in and to my surprise my phosphate has been undectable till now... but my n03 is still around. So I went off and start using AZN03 and it did really reduce my n03 to undectable for a long while and these few days I found that my phosphate is still undectable but my n03 has increase. My macro algae did grow but very slowly.

 

[pi]

After reading the new additions to this thread and the idea of adding bioballs, it had me wondering if this is the same concept that the zeovit system employs. Adding a aerobic filter to increase nitrate.

But there are two things I find confusing.

1) what happens when the phosphate is gone and you have just the opposite of where you started (ie low phosphate to high nitrate)

2) in the zeovit system you remove 100% of the biological media after 4-6 weeks. If indeed this system works like the bioballs suggestion, what purpose would it serve to remove it completely?

It would seem that you would need a source for phosphates to keep the balance or else you would have a seesaw affect where your phosphate and nitrate levels would go up and down. Makes me wonder what is in those additives the zeovit system employs.

 

[wasp]

Alanseah, how old is your tank, and how much LR do you have, and how much water circulation? If your nitrate is really high it sounds like there is somehow something amiss with your filtration system. Using nitrate removers like AZNO3 should really be only a short term fix.

And Quote - "1) what happens when the phosphate is gone and you have just the opposite of where you started (ie low phosphate to high nitrate)"

I have been thinking of that, if I get to a point of good biological phosphate removal, through macralgae or whatever, but high nitrate, I am thinking it will just be a case of removing some bioballs, until the right balance is struck. I am wondering if some of the really successful tanks that never have nitrate or phosphate problems have happened upon this balance already.

Quote - "2) in the zeovit system you remove 100% of the biological media after 4-6 weeks. If indeed this system works like the bioballs suggestion, what purpose would it serve to remove it completely?"

Herein lies the Zeovit conundrum - nobody quite knows exactly how it works. It is a manufacturers secret
Not sure if this is true, but one article I read suggested that even the inventor of the system did not fully understand it, it was a system he had arrived at by trial and error, until he found something that works. Don't quote me on that though, it was just what I read so cannot vouch for it.

 

[571958]

my 2 cents base on 8 mths experiences

my 2 cents base on 8 mths experiences

Adding BioBalls is great trying to match the right PO4 and NO3 ratio for effective removal of both to very low -levels. I suggest adding several layers of sponges to prefilter all water flowing thru the bio-balls. These prefilters sponges can be added to drip-plate and exercise weekly changes of these filter sponges that will have large amount of dirt collected. This help to keep the NO3 build-up at the Bio-Balls in check.

Max

After reading the new additions to this thread and the idea of adding bioballs, it had me wondering if this is the same concept that the zeovit system employs. Adding a aerobic filter to increase nitrate.

But there are two things I find confusing.

1) what happens when the phosphate is gone and you have just the opposite of where you started (ie low phosphate to high nitrate)

2) in the zeovit system you remove 100% of the biological media after 4-6 weeks. If indeed this system works like the bioballs suggestion, what purpose would it serve to remove it completely?

It would seem that you would need a source for phosphates to keep the balance or else you would have a seesaw affect where your phosphate and nitrate levels would go up and down. Makes me wonder what is in those additives the zeovit system employs.

 

[Jörg Kokott]

Hey guys,

nice discussion, however, I think I need to get back to the beginning of this thread as you discuss like hell and I need some time reading everything carefully

Zeovit: in fact, T. Pohl does'nt really understand what he's selling, however, zeolite filtration is quite simple to understand.

The zeolite used for the reef aquarium hobby is a clinoptilolite, characterized by strong ammonia affinity and only minor calcium affinity. All other zeolites used in the fresh water hobby strongly adsorb calcium... not really good for marine tanks.
However, when te clinoptilolit adsorbs ammonia, bacteria can simply nitrify the ammonia to generate nitrate (oxic surface), which is further denitrified within the molecular sieve of the zeolite (anoxic inner surface).
Ammonia adsorption is the key why the current within a zeolit filter must be high, otherwise bacteria would'nt have any chance to catch any dissolved inorganic nutrient.
As these clinoptilolites also contain iron and manganese, we have discussed whether iron and manganese dissolve in seawater and bind orthophosphate in the water column. These metal-phosphates might then be skimmable. But this hypothesis is still unprooved. However. when you put zeolite in the water, your aquarium water gets cristal clear within 24 hours. I think, that's due to the iron/manganese release and subsequent skimming of metal-phosphate colloids. But as I said, that's an unprooved hypothesis.

Zeovit is a product name, not a specific zeolite. Zeovit ist the clinoptilolite, zeofood is a growth medium for heterotrophic bacteria with ammonium acetate as carbon source for heterotrophic bacterial nutrition, enriched with amino acids and vitamins, and the zeobac bacteria T. Pohl sells might be Paracoccus denitrificans (because these are commonly sold as aquarium bacteria in Germany). That's it with zeovit.

You can also combine zeolites with vodka. The zeolite works independently from any carbon source you add to the water, because the main function of the zeolite is to adsorb ammonia.

 

[Habib]

Yes, Clinoptilolite has enough affinity for ammonia in seawater to highly enhance the ability of bacteria to transform it to nitrite.

However the carbon source for these bacteria is bicarbonate.

I think that any organic source of carbon might be to grow more other bacteria which would incorporate phosphor and nitrogen in their bio-mass.

So the Clinoptilolite together with some bacteria to rapidly remove any ammonia from the water and an organic source of carbon for bateria to multiply and grow and incorporate nitrogen and phosphate. If they are skimmed out these nurients will be exported from the tank.

I'm not sure if a bacteria culture would be needed if there are already just a few of the required bacteria.

 

[Habib]

Jörg:

Almost forgot:

[welcome]