Drains vs Pump size help

[JMorris271]

With dual corner overflows, do I double the pumps capacity to handle both drains velocity requirements ? I don't know if I can cut back drainage enough to balance the Syncre 3.0 max.


600 GPH @ 5' of head with a Sicce 3.0 Pump
1"drain size drains 600 gph
9" overflow



Thank

 

[hobbzz]

As long as the pump doesn't put out more than they can handle you will be fine. There is no minimum if that's what you are asking. What kind of drain setup? Stockman, durso, herbie?

 

[JMorris271]

Sorry. My brain was typing Herbie but my fingers weren't. Herbie

 

[hobbzz]

Use the two smaller holes as drains, one from each overflow. Tie them together with a "T", then put a gate valve (not a ball valve) at the end of the run. They will balance themselves. Then use the other two holes as emergency. Make sure the tank is level so each overflow gets roughly the same amount of water. This is how my tank is set up and it works great.

 

[JMorris271]

Thanks for the answer but I am asking if the return pump needs to have double output because it has the flow of 2 drains to manage as opposed to the single overflow system that has one.
I don't want to dial back the drains if I don't need to.

 

[Dr. Reef]

U have it backwards. It's not the flow of how many drains what matters. It's the return pump flow after head loss is what is important.
U can have 1 drain versus 10 returns as long as return pumps max flow rate after head loss doesn't exceed drains flow capacity.
Also NEVER dial drain down. It should always be flowing unrestricted.

 

[Dr. Reef]

For example: if u have 2 drains of 1" each. Each drain can handle upto 960 gph so u r total drain capacity is 1920 gph. Now u need a pump that can deliver AFTER HEADLESS about 1900 gph or even more and u can dial pumps return down to match the maximum drain.

 

[JMorris271]

For example: if u have 2 drains of 1" each. Each drain can handle upto 960 gph so u r total drain capacity is 1920 gph. Now u need a pump that can deliver AFTER HEADLESS about 1900 gph or even more and u can dial pumps return down to match the maximum drain.

That is what my question was about.The bad news is I have to buy a different pump.
Thanks for your help

 

[hobbzz]

Why do you think you need a different pump? What are you trying to achieve? And no, the pump does not need to have double the output.

Generally speaking, most people go with about 3-5x the display volume through the sump. So for your 120, that would be 360-600 gph through your sump, in which case your current pump would be perfect. You don't need to max out your drains, I'm not sure why bnumair stated it like that. That would be a very loud sump, and wouldn't help with filtration. Now if you wanted to max them out, that's a different story.

 

[shermanator]

How are you plumbing the Herbie with dual overflows? Are you planning a full siphon + emergency drain in each corner?

Also NEVER dial drain down. It should always be flowing unrestricted.

You do dial down the drain with the Herbie to get a silent full siphon, but you also always need an emergency drain.

 

[m0nkie]

I dialed down my bean animal by 80%. Just way too much drainage power. You don't want your flow in the fuge too fast. It's also why you have powerheads in the display, to provide the extra flow needed

Your pump should be fine if you do not T it off to power reactors. My Sicce 4 can barely handle a GFO reactor and a carbon reactor.. I have to run my carbon really slow.

 

[JMorris271]

I dialed down my bean animal by 80%. Just way too much drainage power. You don't want your flow in the fuge too fast. It's also why you have powerheads in the display, to provide the extra flow needed
Can you convert percent to gph so I can see the volume better? For instance, what you normally drain and what you drain after dial back
Your pump should be fine if you do not T it off to power reactors. My Sicce 4 can barely handle a GFO reactor and a carbon reactor.. I have to run my carbon really slow.

I will be running a GFO/CO reactor off of the return compartment. so I will need to T off. This does complicate things a bit for me. Running carbon slow the most efficient way to go? If carbon is packet tight , how do you get through there?

 

[JMorris271]

How are you plumbing the Herbie with dual overflows? Are you planning a full siphon + emergency drain in each corner?



You do dial down the drain with the Herbie to get a silent full siphon, but you also always need an emergency drain.

I am using Herbie on both corners so it will have dual everything.

 

[m0nkie]

1" bean animal drain can easily handle 2000+ gph. My pump max at 950. 3 pipes. 1 pipe is 70% closed. 1 is fully open but mostly dry. Emergency is always dry. I dont have exact numbers, but if i open the pipe anymore, my overflow will instantly dry out.

Carbon reactor should be max output. But my pump cant handle it. If u do upgrade, get the syncra 5.

 

[Dr. Reef]

1" bean animal drain can easily handle 2000+ gph. My pump max at 950. 3 pipes. 1 pipe is 70% closed. 1 is fully open but mostly dry. Emergency is always dry. I dont have exact numbers, but if i open the pipe anymore, my overflow will instantly dry out.

Carbon reactor should be max output. But my pump cant handle it. If u do upgrade, get the syncra 5.

Again, you have it backwards.
If you have to dial the drain in order to achieve a certain level and flow through your overflow and letting is run unrestricted caused overflow to go dry only means ur return pump is not sufficient.
guys its not the drain that run the show its the return pump.
its very simple, whatever the return pump will push up is same exact going to come down (generally speaking if return after head loss is not more than drain's capacity)

 

[Dr. Reef]

Why do you think you need a different pump? What are you trying to achieve? And no, the pump does not need to have double the output.

Generally speaking, most people go with about 3-5x the display volume through the sump. So for your 120, that would be 360-600 gph through your sump, in which case your current pump would be perfect. You don't need to max out your drains, I'm not sure why bnumair stated it like that. That would be a very loud sump, and wouldn't help with filtration. Now if you wanted to max them out, that's a different story.

I agree. you dont have to max out the drain. i was only giving example of the maximum there. and you are right generally 5x is plenty for turn over.

 

[shermanator]

Again, you have it backwards.
If you have to dial the drain in order to achieve a certain level and flow through your overflow and letting is run unrestricted caused overflow to go dry only means ur return pump is not sufficient.
guys its not the drain that run the show its the return pump.
its very simple, whatever the return pump will push up is same exact going to come down (generally speaking if return after head loss is not more than drain's capacity)

You are correct for a non-Herbie... But in a Herbie (or BeanAnimal), your main drain(s) are siphons. It's impractical to use a pump that matches a full siphon, even on a 1" PVC and would be crazy overkill for almost every tank. Full siphon on a 1" is well over 2,000 gph. The solution with the Herbie or Bean is that you dial back the siphon with a gate valve to match the return pump (it still maintains an air-free siphon, but lower flow). It makes it dead silent. And since this can be a recipe for disaster (perfectly matched drain and return), each siphon has an emergency return (usually with larger diameter pipe than the siphon). Bean adds the 3rd pipe, which is even safer but not an option with dual corner overflows.

The best writeup of the Herbie is at GMAC Reef: http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/

They explain it much better than I can. The key innovation of Herbie / Bean is the use of a dialed back siphon (with gate valve).

 

[dkeller_nc]

I will be running a GFO/CO reactor off of the return compartment. so I will need to T off. This does complicate things a bit for me. Running carbon slow the most efficient way to go? If carbon is packet tight , how do you get through there?

I would recommend buying a much smaller, dedicated pump for your reactor set-up. In my case, I use a Synchra 0.5, and even that is way too much for a Phosban 150 reactor, so I valve down the output to get the right flowrate for the BRS High Capacity GFO that I use.

There are several reasons for having separate pumps, but a couple of good ones is a considerably simplified plumbing set-up, and the ability to take the reactors off-line for maintenance at your leisure without having the main return pump off.

 

[m0nkie]

I would recommend buying a much smaller, dedicated pump for your reactor set-up. In my case, I use a Synchra 0.5, and even that is way too much for a Phosban 150 reactor, so I valve down the output to get the right flowrate for the BRS High Capacity GFO that I use.

There are several reasons for having separate pumps, but a couple of good ones is a considerably simplified plumbing set-up, and the ability to take the reactors off-line for maintenance at your leisure without having the main return pump off.

the down part to that is extra pump, extra cost, and extra heat generated from the pump. A gate valve can control the output of the manifold . Simply turn it off to do maintenance. No need to shut down the return pump.

my crappy looking manifold... Using 2 out of 4 so far. Pump will not handle the 3rd one in the future.. maybe chiller or UV.

 

[stifrk]

Also keep in mind converting to tube typically reduces flow by generating head pressure because the fittings are actually smaller than the tube they fit in.