Drought implications on our hobby?

[woodnaquanut]

Interesting discussion. The politics of water is complicated.

I'm not sure we have built much in the way of storage for more than 50 years. The last big project I remember is the Cal Aqueduct. It was brought online when I was in high school! (yes, I am that OLD!!) Even that is more of a delivery system than storage.

I'm not sure storage is the problem. When there is no/low supply, the storage we have is not used. There are so many ecological issues with dams, I'm not in favor of more.

As to who uses the water, it's agriculture, meat and dairy, manufacturing and residential. IIRC, ag+meat/dairy is about 90% total consumption, manufacturing is most of the rest with residential being very small.

I understand why ag is a 'protected' class. They provide over half of the fruits and vegetables to the entire US. They actually produce something useful. Not exactly like a golf course or home lawn. There might be a shift in crops to use what's available better. The big crop in the news has been almonds. Not an easy crop to change.

If this is a long term change in weather patterns we (US) will have to change our consumption of fruits and vegetables. A few years ago we hosted an exchange student from Norway. She was amazed we would have salads every night. We almost had to force her to eat apples and oranges because she was worried we were spending too much money on her. Without enough water in CA these foods might become the luxury items they are in Norway.

 

[neuro]

We really need to take a good hard look into desalination(turning seawater into freshwater). I'm a fisheries biologist and I work for a company that does some of the environmental impact studies for proposed desalination plants in California and other parts of the country. There's actually a desalination plant in Carlsbad, CA that should be able to produce it's first cup of fresh water in a few months. Yes it's expensive and takes a lot of power but we're getting to the point in our population in CA and a serious drought where we will see no other alternative.




Here's a link to the plant in Carlsbad
http://carlsbaddesal.com/

I recently heard an NPR segment on how difficult it is to get desalination working, along with how much bang for our buck you get.

I'm sure you're aware of the implications, especially environmental!

 

[danil]

Agriculture in California does nearly nothing for California's economy yet accounts for 80% of water consumption. I almost feel as if the consumer is the wrong target for mandatory restrictions. Bay area residents actually react when they're simply asked to conserve, can't say the same for socal so it's a bit unfair in my opinion for the more conservative residential consumer to foot the bill for an industry that's exporting all of it's product despite massive local consumption. Just my opinion and it's tough for me to feel that way because I support local farming & agriculture but in this case it's not putting food on the table for this state.

+1. They have to split the problem between business and residential water consumption. We have different needs and pay different rates for it. Neither of us has to fix issue at the expense of other party. Industrial RO systems are not good for farmers but perfectly fine and commercially viable for residential water consumption.

 

[EnderTurtle]

Not really a solution to the drought but here are my practices:

I use my old tank water to flush my toilet.
I use my old tank water to rinse gfo and carbon.
I use the rodi wastewater to water plants

For those with low nutrient systems is it possible to use the old water on a lps system or planted tank system?

As for dealing with the drought, i point my fingers to the heavily funded agriculture business here in our state. I work in environmental permitting and biological monitoring so im very familiar with environmental regulations. Agriculture gets the BIGGEST breaks with environmental regulations. Look up the clean water act and see how many exemptions there are for agriculture. They have so much political clout its almost useless fighting them. And yes they account for a tiny fraction of Californias economy but uses up 80% of the states water.

Why does california have to produce the rest of the country's agriculture?

Also why hasnt any regulator restricted the types of crops grown? Do you know how much water it takes to grow Walnuts and Almonds? Naturally, walnuts grow near streams and they need enough water to replicate the hydric soils found near streams. Now imagine trying to grow riparian plants in a plowed field in the middle of the nowhere.

Why hasnt there been mandated watering methods for agriculture? Drip irrigation instead of broadcast spraying?

Agriculture=big business=poltical power

We can survive at most 3 days without drinking water. How long can you live without walnuts and almonds?

 

[nly04]

Not really a solution to the drought but here are my practices:

I use my old tank water to flush my toilet.
I use my old tank water to rinse gfo and carbon.
I use the rodi wastewater to water plants

For those with low nutrient systems is it possible to use the old water on a lps system or planted tank system?

What? flush toilet with salt water?
Using salt water for Planted tank (fresh water). Please put more detail on how to make these happen. lol

 

[GreshamH]

Not really a solution to the drought but here are my practices:

I use my old tank water to flush my toilet.
I use my old tank water to rinse gfo and carbon.
I use the rodi wastewater to water plants

For those with low nutrient systems is it possible to use the old water on a lps system or planted tank system?

As for dealing with the drought, i point my fingers to the heavily funded agriculture business here in our state. I work in environmental permitting and biological monitoring so im very familiar with environmental regulations. Agriculture gets the BIGGEST breaks with environmental regulations. Look up the clean water act and see how many exemptions there are for agriculture. They have so much political clout its almost useless fighting them. And yes they account for a tiny fraction of Californias economy but uses up 80% of the states water.

Why does california have to produce the rest of the country's agriculture?

Also why hasnt any regulator restricted the types of crops grown? Do you know how much water it takes to grow Walnuts and Almonds? Naturally, walnuts grow near streams and they need enough water to replicate the hydric soils found near streams. Now imagine trying to grow riparian plants in a plowed field in the middle of the nowhere.

Why hasnt there been mandated watering methods for agriculture? Drip irrigation instead of broadcast spraying?

Agriculture=big business=poltical power

We can survive at most 3 days without drinking water. How long can you live without walnuts and almonds?

I suggest reading up on California water laws. A lot of what you suggest, cannot happen without an overturn of existing laws, and new ones created. The Big Ag has DEEP pockets, deeper then most... its very hard to fight against that.

That 80% use, 15% of the economy is wrong. Ag has a much deeper impact then that when you account for all the supporting industries. Thousands upon thousands of people depend on Ag for a living, whether they be growers, pickers, field automation companies, water delivery, equipment sales and support, etc. Yes, ag sales may only be that part, but Ags effect is FAR greater then that.

 

[HiFidelity]

According to the USDA/NASS Crop Year Report the state of CA agricultural sales totaled $44.7B in 2012.

According to the Census Bureau CA brought in $112B in the year 2012

So that gives us roughly 40% there is a breakdown I'm sure somewhere that shows how much of that product was exported out of state, how much was exported out of the country etc. These are very general numbers by the way, just to give you all an idea this is a list of what CA Agriculture produces;

Almonds Escarole/Endive Mandarins & Mandarin Hybrids 2/ Plums
Apricots Figs Melons, Cantaloupe Plums, Dried
Artichokes Flowers, Bulbs Melons, Honeydew Pluots
Asparagus Flowers, Cut Milk Pomegranates
Avocados Flowers, Potted Plants Milk Goats Raspberries
Beans, Dry Lima Garlic Nectarines Rice, Sweet
Beans, F.M. Snap Grapes, Raisins Nursery, Bedding Plants Safflower
Bedding/Garden Plants Grapes, Table Nursery Crops Seed, Alfalfa
Broccoli Grapes, Wine Olives Seed, Bermuda Grass
Brussels Sprouts Greens, Mustard Onions, Dry Seed, Ladino Clover
Cabbage, Chinese Hay, Alfalfa Onions, Green Seed, Vegetable and Flower
Cabbage, F.M. Herbs Parsley Spinach
Carrots Kale Peaches, Clingstone Strawberries
Cauliflower Kiwifruit Peaches, Freestone Tomatoes, F.M.
Celery Kumquats Pears, Bartlett Tomatoes, Processing
Chicory Lemons Peppers, Chile Vegetables, Greenhouse
Cotton, American Pima Lettuce, Head Peppers, Bell Vegetables, Oriental
Daikon Lettuce, Leaf Persimmons Walnuts
Dates Lettuce, Romaine Pigeons and Squabs Wild Rice
Eggplant Limes Pistachios.


The interesting fact is that the majority of our crops go to other states, 10% of total revenues generated came from Almonds.

If you ask me I say the other states need to start paying higher prices and Almonds should go out the window until the drought has resolved. Agriculture can continue as it is but more & more I'm hearing the choice in crops grown isn't very wise with respect to water conservation.

Source:
http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/California/Publications/California_Ag_Statistics/Reports/2012cas-all.pdf

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/state-tax-revenue-data.html

side note: CA revenues are seriously impressive compared to other states. in 2012 CA brought in more $$ than New York & texas, much more. In fact texas combined with new york is barely more than CA.

 

[neuro]

According to the USDA/NASS Crop Year Report the state of CA agricultural sales totaled $44.7B in 2012.

According to the Census Bureau CA brought in $112B in the year 2012

So that gives us roughly 40% there is a breakdown I'm sure somewhere that shows how much of that product was exported out of state, how much was exported out of the country etc. These are very general numbers by the way, just to give you all an idea this is a list of what CA Agriculture produces;

Almonds Escarole/Endive Mandarins & Mandarin Hybrids 2/ Plums
Apricots Figs Melons, Cantaloupe Plums, Dried
Artichokes Flowers, Bulbs Melons, Honeydew Pluots
Asparagus Flowers, Cut Milk Pomegranates
Avocados Flowers, Potted Plants Milk Goats Raspberries
Beans, Dry Lima Garlic Nectarines Rice, Sweet
Beans, F.M. Snap Grapes, Raisins Nursery, Bedding Plants Safflower
Bedding/Garden Plants Grapes, Table Nursery Crops Seed, Alfalfa
Broccoli Grapes, Wine Olives Seed, Bermuda Grass
Brussels Sprouts Greens, Mustard Onions, Dry Seed, Ladino Clover
Cabbage, Chinese Hay, Alfalfa Onions, Green Seed, Vegetable and Flower
Cabbage, F.M. Herbs Parsley Spinach
Carrots Kale Peaches, Clingstone Strawberries
Cauliflower Kiwifruit Peaches, Freestone Tomatoes, F.M.
Celery Kumquats Pears, Bartlett Tomatoes, Processing
Chicory Lemons Peppers, Chile Vegetables, Greenhouse
Cotton, American Pima Lettuce, Head Peppers, Bell Vegetables, Oriental
Daikon Lettuce, Leaf Persimmons Walnuts
Dates Lettuce, Romaine Pigeons and Squabs Wild Rice
Eggplant Limes Pistachios.

Oh man that list just made me hungry

 

[sfsuphysics]

The interesting fact is that the majority of our crops go to other states, 10% of total revenues generated came from Almonds.

Yes, because a majority of other states are very monoculture when it comes to what they grow, the midwest grows wheat and corn like nobody's business, however if you want some actual vitamins in your meal you go to places like California for your vegetables

If you ask me I say the other states need to start paying higher prices and Almonds should go out the window until the drought has resolved. Agriculture can continue as it is but more & more I'm hearing the choice in crops grown isn't very wise with respect to water conservation.

The problem with this is that we're not talking a quick and easy fix like letting your lawn go dead, and then replant when necessary. It is a mammoth undertaking to completely remove a particular crop and go with a more "water wise" version, if you're talking something like a tree crop, you could chop down an orchard and replant and not only will that cost a lot financially in the short term, in the long term you're talking years and years before you get any product again waiting for trees to mature, then even more years before they get to a fully productive state.

But you know what? Farmers are making the switch, not everyone to be sure but some are. But the agriculture market is a bit more complicated than that, less almonds means prices will shoot up, if prices shoot up, it'll get more interest in farming for almonds, it's a cycle, and farmers are not rich people, what happens if you see tomatoes for $6 a pound? You don't buy them, and the store doesn't sell them, then the store gets produce from south of the border that's much cheaper (and I'm ignoring the dirt cheap prices the super market pays in the first place, hint: they won't be paying ANYWHERE close to that $6/lbs price for the US grown tomatoes), so farmers need to sell cheap.

Full disclosure, I am biased, my wife's side of the family are farmers, and while they don't export anything, most of the food they do grow is a bit of a "luxury" product, melons, figs, peaches, etc. But with that it has given me an understanding of how the "other side" operates. And yeah I would probably say looking at crops that get exported to other countries (soy, rice, grains in general... ) maybe should tighten the belt a bit more but whenever I see that 80%/20% number for Ag/Residental I think... how much of that water that you as a consumer use actually does anything for anyone else? Do you feed others? does that lawn do anything other than make your house "look nice" and makes a nice play area? Does the personal swimming pool serve a purpose? That extra long shower that relaxes you at the end of a long day help anyone else?

Farmers are being asked to ration water supplies trust me, my family has gone through enough years of being told there were restrictions on how much water they can use, but from the consumer side of things it feels like we're the only ones being asked to conserve water, and it seems like it's ONLY being pointed at us, but it really isn't.

And from a consumer's perspective it's a pain to save water, want to make a water catch system for your roof for rain runoff (when it does rain)? Do you know much those rain collection containers cost? Usually it's on the order of $3 per gallon of storage. Do you know how much water costs? Last I checked it was about $10 per unit in SF (ignoring sewage cost which about doubles that), but a unit of water is like 750 gallons, so just about 2.5 cents per gallon once you include sewage costs, that's a really hard sell to justify spending $700 for a 250 gallon rain catcher when it'll cost you just over 6 bucks to use 250 from the city tap, that thing will have to fill up over 100 times before it starts paying back dividends, and as often as it rains in this area, that's going to take a lot of years.

So long windedness aside, the answer to the original question is I don't do anything different. I don't have a landscaped yard (it's mostly long grass weeds that I pull but I never have to water), I do try to run the RO waste water to a couple fruit tress that I have. But other than that, I use less than the average, gotta work on the wife who likes to take long showers... you try to convince a woman that 5 minutes should be more than enough! And to be perfectly blunt, as long as I see people with lawns that are green I refuse to cut back my water usage on my fish tank.

 

[danil]

I think people are more important than fruits. And numbers we have in this thread show that millions of residential customers (including kids and disable people) with water consumption of around 10% (of total) being force to face harsh restrictions for "hundreds" of farms growing almonds counting for 80% of total water usage. I would say provide all water needs to residential customers first. Let market work things out on commercial bases and meanwhile start do real saving by shutting down farms with higher water consumption.

 

[HiFidelity]

No matter which way we flip the card, reality is no farm has to shut down or go out of business, I had a friend who owns a large farm out in Visalia, the guy was really smart because he never grew one single crop in his whole farm, he always had at least 3 different types just so his revenues can stay dynamic regardless of which way the market swings also enabling him to produce in multiple seasons.

For a farmer it shouldn't be impossible to progressively switch their crop to a more sustainable one as in switching in sections not the entire crop, I don't remember the last time I needed almonds or went looking for them so as a consumer in this state it's only logical to me to say the hell with almonds haha. The farmer who's profiting from them on the other hand, different story.

My dream is to grow grapes on my own piece of land (not quite there yet) so if anything I'm always on the farmer's side, but economically it's only a matter of time before the public turns a critical eye to our agricultural industry. We happen to be in the most economically diverse states and as mentioned earlier the richest state in the nation. Losing some of our crops will not bankrupt us in any way.

Water isn't cheap, I live in Hayward and I'm spending well over $500 a month on both water and electricity, I have a 50G tank that's LED lit and I do a water change once a or twice a month, never run the heater and hand-water pots so no lawn or sprinkler system. I don't care how many farms need to shut down but that's already 80% of my income going into mortgage, utilities & upkeep and I'm in the suburbs for crying out loud, I doubt I'm a minority with this type of cost. Again I can't wait to live on my own plot of land with a well and solar panels, the world can burn then for all I care.

 

[mdt178]

I might add that the 80/20 number is misleading. Those didn't account for water allocation for environment and other non-human uses (dams, delta estuary, wetland restoration, lakes, waterways...)
Technically agriculture gets 4 times as much as urban, hence the 80/20 number. I've seen reports that ag gets 40%, urban 10% and 50% for others. Perhaps someone from Dept of Water Resource could verify.
25% off of the 10% is not much.

I live next to a city that's gonna be hit with a 35% reduction. Ouch!

 

[GreshamH]

According to the USDA/NASS Crop Year Report the state of CA agricultural sales totaled $44.7B in 2012.

According to the Census Bureau CA brought in $112B in the year 2012

So that gives us roughly 40% there is a breakdown I'm sure somewhere that shows how much of that product was exported out of state, how much was exported out of the country etc. These are very general numbers by the way, just to give you all an idea this is a list of what CA Agriculture produces;

Almonds Escarole/Endive Mandarins & Mandarin Hybrids 2/ Plums
Apricots Figs Melons, Cantaloupe Plums, Dried
Artichokes Flowers, Bulbs Melons, Honeydew Pluots
Asparagus Flowers, Cut Milk Pomegranates
Avocados Flowers, Potted Plants Milk Goats Raspberries
Beans, Dry Lima Garlic Nectarines Rice, Sweet
Beans, F.M. Snap Grapes, Raisins Nursery, Bedding Plants Safflower
Bedding/Garden Plants Grapes, Table Nursery Crops Seed, Alfalfa
Broccoli Grapes, Wine Olives Seed, Bermuda Grass
Brussels Sprouts Greens, Mustard Onions, Dry Seed, Ladino Clover
Cabbage, Chinese Hay, Alfalfa Onions, Green Seed, Vegetable and Flower
Cabbage, F.M. Herbs Parsley Spinach
Carrots Kale Peaches, Clingstone Strawberries
Cauliflower Kiwifruit Peaches, Freestone Tomatoes, F.M.
Celery Kumquats Pears, Bartlett Tomatoes, Processing
Chicory Lemons Peppers, Chile Vegetables, Greenhouse
Cotton, American Pima Lettuce, Head Peppers, Bell Vegetables, Oriental
Daikon Lettuce, Leaf Persimmons Walnuts
Dates Lettuce, Romaine Pigeons and Squabs Wild Rice
Eggplant Limes Pistachios.


The interesting fact is that the majority of our crops go to other states, 10% of total revenues generated came from Almonds.

If you ask me I say the other states need to start paying higher prices and Almonds should go out the window until the drought has resolved. Agriculture can continue as it is but more & more I'm hearing the choice in crops grown isn't very wise with respect to water conservation.

Source:
http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/California/Publications/California_Ag_Statistics/Reports/2012cas-all.pdf

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/state-tax-revenue-data.html

side note: CA revenues are seriously impressive compared to other states. in 2012 CA brought in more $$ than New York & texas, much more. In fact texas combined with new york is barely more than CA.

That is revenues brought in by crop sales and does not account for all the rest the farming brings to the plate in terms of support economy, workers, etc.

Farmers also don't get their water from muni sources like consumers do. They pump or get it from aquaducts. Regulating that isn't easy, especially when it comes to groundwater/wells. I watched this fight unfold where I live, which is mainly a farming community. Regulating wells has lead to long time legal battles. Like I said, the state legislator will need to overturn existing laws, and create new ones. Try doing that when big Ag has big money to spend.

Like Mike, I also have a dog in the fight so to speak... I work in farming. I am just now leaving a plankton farm to join up with an aquaponic farm. Yeah, we use only ~15-20% of what conventional farms use to produce the same amount of produce.

 

[GreshamH]

No matter which way we flip the card, reality is no farm has to shut down or go out of business, I had a friend who owns a large farm out in Visalia, the guy was really smart because he never grew one single crop in his whole farm, he always had at least 3 different types just so his revenues can stay dynamic regardless of which way the market swings also enabling him to produce in multiple seasons.

For a farmer it shouldn't be impossible to progressively switch their crop to a more sustainable one as in switching in sections not the entire crop, I don't remember the last time I needed almonds or went looking for them so as a consumer in this state it's only logical to me to say the hell with almonds haha. The farmer who's profiting from them on the other hand, different story.

My dream is to grow grapes on my own piece of land (not quite there yet) so if anything I'm always on the farmer's side, but economically it's only a matter of time before the public turns a critical eye to our agricultural industry. We happen to be in the most economically diverse states and as mentioned earlier the richest state in the nation. Losing some of our crops will not bankrupt us in any way.

Water isn't cheap, I live in Hayward and I'm spending well over $500 a month on both water and electricity, I have a 50G tank that's LED lit and I do a water change once a or twice a month, never run the heater and hand-water pots so no lawn or sprinkler system. I don't care how many farms need to shut down but that's already 80% of my income going into mortgage, utilities & upkeep and I'm in the suburbs for crying out loud, I doubt I'm a minority with this type of cost. Again I can't wait to live on my own plot of land with a well and solar panels, the world can burn then for all I care.

FWIW the almonds are just sold as almonds... think almond milk, a very popular alternative to cow milk.

Not that I agree with growing nuts, rice, cotton, etc in the central valley

 

[sfsuphysics]

No matter which way we flip the card, reality is no farm has to shut down or go out of business, I had a friend who owns a large farm out in Visalia, the guy was really smart because he never grew one single crop in his whole farm, he always had at least 3 different types just so his revenues can stay dynamic regardless of which way the market swings also enabling him to produce in multiple seasons.

Unless said farm primarily produces one particular crop, which isn't as farm from the truth. The thing tree crops are a whole different game than vine/bush type of crops, trees need water every year or they die, period. If it's something like rice, then no problem don't plant rice this year plant squash or whatever (not that those two types of produce use the same conditions). Gotta say it's kind of hard to tell a farmer who has a nut orchard "sorry guy, you need to go bankrupt because people who live no where close to where water exists want to have green lawns".

Say what you will about a "people first" attitude, bottom line is most big cities don't have enough water because they grew where there is no water. There's a reason why the bay area gets most of it's water from near Yosemite, or southern California from much further away. While the same could be said about some farms too, some do lie near a water source (i.e. sacramento river)... I find it kind of disgusting what Sacramento has done around it's area by turning most of the farm land into residential units.

 

[sfsuphysics]

I might add that the 80/20 number is misleading. Those didn't account for water allocation for environment and other non-human uses (dams, delta estuary, wetland restoration, lakes, waterways...)
Technically agriculture gets 4 times as much as urban, hence the 80/20 number. I've seen reports that ag gets 40%, urban 10% and 50% for others. Perhaps someone from Dept of Water Resource could verify.
25% off of the 10% is not much.

I live next to a city that's gonna be hit with a 35% reduction. Ouch!

This is pretty much true, about half the water is left to the environment, and IMO rightly so. If anyone saw what Folsom lake looked like last year you could literally walk across the lake (without being the son of god). Imagine we just said "screw the environment, we need water more than stupid fish" then there might be a dry river bed from the Tahoe all the way to the SF Bay (used to be) estuary.

Most city reductions don't hit the residential side of thing too well, things like golf courses, parks, and other high grass watering areas almost always get hit the hardest, where as on the residential side they don't use that much in general so any one person would have a hard time reducing 35% and have it show up as something meaningful. For instance my water meter reads in units, I used 2 units last month, 3 units this month... where do I get 35% of 2? The reality of is people on average are too much out for themselves, this thread is a perfect example of that with looking at what others (farmers) use and less about them, and an individual will not conserve much if it's not worth it for them which usually translates to higher water rates, then if it gets too bad cities start banning lawns and other high water usage, hey we got skate boarding out of it back in the day... what's next?

 

[d0ughb0y]

My recent water bill shows my usage cut by almost half.

Lawn sprinklers were off for both periods. 25% cut should not be a problem for anyone to do. From OP's first post, this thread is about what we can do to help the water crisis, and not about justifying why we should not or why someone else should be responsible for conserving water.