DSB Diagram -- Seeking Consensus

[Whys]

I started this thread in the newbie forum, but it quickly became far too advanced a conversation there.

I'm trying to address the differences in the models used by environmentalists versus biologists, to see if we can't agree on a middle ground diagram, so that we're all on the same page while discussing it.

I believe my Environmentalist's Diagram is fairly complete. I am less certain of the Biologist's Diagram and would really appreciate input.

Please add your contribution to the Consensus Diagram for the benefit of newbies researching this hobby. In particular, I'd like to get everyone's feedback on the term "hyperhypoxic" to mean extremely hypoxic. I realize I'm going out on a limb with that one, but it is a real term in the medical industry and I feel it provides a dictionary definition of the most significant region of a DSB.

Thanks.

 

[Aquarist007]

IMO you should deliniate the anerobic bacteria as nitrifyers in the hypoxic area and denifyers in the anoxic area to show the two strains

but what an effort in creating the consensus diagram Whys---I applaud you.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I'm along for the ride as well.
As hard as it may be to fathom I understand the differences. I can easily differentiate from the 3 diagrams. Either way, I can safely say it's much clearer to me now. Great diagram Whys.

 

[jenglish]

Seeking consensus on anything DSB related is like trying to decide pizza toppings between 4 people.... NOT GONNA HAPPEN :lol:

Further confusing the debate I often hear hypoxic areas as anoxic and vice versa and the bacteria in the true hypoxic zone referred to as anaerobic (which functionally they are). I tend to simply say low oxygen or no oxygen

 

[Whys]

Thanks for trying to shut down the conversation jenglish.

If you'll actually look at the diagram, you will realize that everything you mentioned is already illustrated.

Thanks for the bump.

 

[Whys]

Capn, not a bad idea, I'll see what I can do with it.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15055405#post15055405 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jenglish
Seeking consensus on anything DSB related is like trying to decide pizza toppings between 4 people.... NOT GONNA HAPPEN :lol:

Further confusing the debate I often hear hypoxic areas as anoxic and vice versa and the bacteria in the true hypoxic zone referred to as anaerobic (which functionally they are). I tend to simply say low oxygen or no oxygen

I agree with you and that's why I compliment Whys for his efforts.

 

[Whys]

I don't mind some healthy skepticism. All I ask is constructive contributions. Declaring that it can never happen does not strike me as particularly constructive. That's all.

Anyway, it goes a little something like this. My diagram does not actually require a consensus. It only requires that both the environmentalist's and biologist's diagrams be accurate. That way anyone new to DSBs can at least understand the cause of confusion and have the awareness necessary to know which page people are on. I would be very pleased if we could agree on some kind of consensus diagram for purposes of this forum, but if not, I'll likely just submit my own. Others can choose to either have a role in it, or they can complain about it later. Up to them.

 

[tmz]

You need to show S04 (sulfate ) in the anoxic area;not nitrate, When the nitrate(NO3) is gone bacteria turn to the oxygen in sulfate (SO4) producing hydrogen sulfide as a by porduct.

 

[Whys]

Tmz, thank you for this. Is this something that should be demonstrated on one diagram or both? Any thoughts on how best to illustrate it? I don't know if replacing the bottom NO3 arrow with a SO4 arrow would give the right impression.

Anyone?

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15056411#post15056411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
You need to show S04 (sulfate ) in the anoxic area;not nitrate, When the nitrate(NO3) is gone bacteria turn to the oxygen in sulfate (SO4) producing hydrogen sulfide as a by porduct.

Tom, are there not two strains of anerobic bacteria--nitrators and denitrators that take care of both in the anoxic area?

 

[Whys]

Okay, now I'm confused.

 

[tmz]

Heterotrophs use oxygen energy to metabolize organic carbon to make coenzmes which support their life functions.They take it from the NO3 producing nitrogen gas as a by product .
When there is no more NO3 and there is still organic carbon they turn to SO4(sulfate ) for oxygen.
Apparently it's easier for them to get the oxygen from NO3 than SO4 . One may be bound differently; don't really know, but they use NO3 first for whatever reason.. I don't think there are different strains per se although there are probably many diffferent types of heterotrophs at work. If there were different strains ,one would be using sulfate and producing hydrogen sulfide constantly since there is about 2700ppm of sulfate in sea water and the other would expire when the nitrate was used up.

 

[tmz]

Ok my suggestions for the consensus diagram:

No need for hyperhypoxic(high/low oxygen) unless you wish to create another zone. I find it confusing.

No nitrate in the anoxic zone.

Sulfate in the anoxic zone.

LD and SD for large and small detritus does not convey the importance or presence of dissolved ( solute) organics, I think using the traditional POM (particulatle organic matter) and DOM( dissolved organic matter )would be better . DOM should be shown in all zones.

 

[Whys]

I'm just not sure sulfate is actually important for purposes of the diagram. This is intended for the newbie forum, not the chemistry forum.

I could simply remove the bottom NO3 arrow and leave the H2S arrow by itself. What's important is to illustrate the risk of having a truly anoxic layer in a DSB, no?

So where does the sulfate come from anyway?

 

[Whys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15062045#post15062045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
No need for hyperhypoxic(high/low oxygen) unless you wish to create another zone. I find it confusing.

Point taken. Anyone else wish to weigh in on this?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15062045#post15062045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
No nitrate in the anoxic zone.

Agreed.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15062045#post15062045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Sulfate in the anoxic zone..

Seems unnecessary to me. Newbies do not test for sulfate nor should they particularly care about it.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15062045#post15062045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
LD and SD for large and small detritus does not convey the importance or presence of dissolved ( solute) organics, I think using the traditional POM (particulatle organic matter) and DOM( dissolved organic matter )would be better . DOM should be shown in all zones.

Way too advanced. Again, this is to help newbies understand the differences at a fairly basic level.

 

[tmz]

It's part of sea water. It's in the salt mix. 2700ppm about double magnesium and 7x the calcium content. It's part of the .0264 in natural sea water's 1.0264 sg. The 1 being water.

 

[Whys]

To be clear, the purpose of the L.D. and S.D. arrows is to simply demonstrate the movement of detritus down into the sandbed, with the larger material first being eaten by the stars, snails, and benthic organisms, which then produce their own smaller detritus that in turn moves lower into the sandbed where it is eaten by worms and bacteria. IMO, this is all a newbie really needs to know.

 

[Whys]

What about replacing "hyperhypoxic" with "functionally anoxic" in the Consensus Diagram?

 

[tmz]

Up to you but that's not my take.

Just as bacteria create nitrogen gas from nitrate,they create hydrogen sulfide from sulfate. As the chart answers the question what happens to nitrate by showing free nitrogen,it should , in my opinion, show where hydrogen sulfide comes from.

Anyone who does much reading in this hobby such as new srius enhusiasts who are likely to have an interst in the chart,will encounter the acronyms DOM and POM.Never saw LD and and SD before and using them can confuse the issue .. Besides not all detritus is organic some is just precipitant which has nothing to do with bacterial activity. Organic material is a critical component of the bacterial activity being described. Ther wouldn't be any without it. Not much detritus if any will reach the anoxic zone but some dissolved(solute) organic material likely will.

Efforts to make it too simple may make it inaccurate and easy to discredit which will certainly happen on these boards if it's not soewhat bullet proof.