DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[the other tang]

I am building a rdsb for my 40g reef using a 5g blue water container " wal-mart $9.99 like the ones you take camping. I saw this oh 30-35 pages back and like it much better than a bucket for me. Unforunately My tank is not drilled, so I have to get creative. i need some input here. I wany to use my water coming out of my skimmer but can't just deadhead the flow into the rdsb because it would cause backpressure in my skimmer and it would not work, hell it might overflow. I am going to put a plastic collection container" like the ones stores use after they catch fish" directly under my hob skimmer output, them put a powerhead in the container to the rdsb. The skimmer should be uneffected by this and I should have good water too. I will return into a decomissioned penguin 330 so i can run carbon. I will also have an airstone or two inthere to help the o2 level get back up and bubble out the nitrogen. I don't believe I will get all the nitrogen out but this should help. I am thinking about seeding the sand with live out of my dsb in my tank. I read that all 3 types of bacteria can survive in an o2 rich environment, which should kickstart this bacteria. Ok, if sugar boosts bacteria in the tank wouldn't it boost it in a dsb? If so you could mix in a tsp with the live sand to get it going...right?

 

[Spuds725]

Will the powerhead from the container after your skimmer be of higher capacity then the water flow to your skimmer?? or will it be designed somehow so it can't run dry...

is your skimmer HOB?? Need a better description of your setup...

I think you are overestimating how fast the nitrate will be broken down to nitrogen gas.. the O2 levels of your RDSB effluent shouldn't be significantly deficient to warrant running an airstone to "reoxygenate" your water.... it won't hurt (other then salt creep) however I don't think it will gain you anything..

I have no opinion on the "sugar" method...

HTH

 

[the other tang]

Thanks Spuds, yes it is a hob skimmer. Although I can't give you the exact # the flow from the skimmer will be higher than the rsdb supply pump will handle. good info on the ammount of nitrogen gas too, thanks wasn't sure exactly how much i'd get. The seeding with live sand then feeding the bacteria sugar just makes sense, but I am not certain it will help much.

 

[nick18tjetta]

I am curious how much flow everyone is using.
How much flow is too much? In the setup I plan on doing, the only way I could impliment the bucket method would to have 300gph going through it. Is this too much? I also read the mention of planting a mangrove in the bucket. Has anyone done this? How did it turn out.

Thanks,

Nick

 

[percula99]

nick18tjetta, the RDSB is supposed to have no light whatsoever, so planting a mangrove is not recommended. There is to be no fauna or flora at all as per Anthony Calfo's recommendation. As for flow, remember what you pump into the bucket has to be able to flow out as well. Example: my RDSB is a 20 gallon Rubbermaid container. I had a 300 GPH pump on it, and decided to up it to a Mag5 at 500 GPH. My container was about to overflow because it couldn't drain fast enough. I put a ball valve on it and adjusted the flow. I get increased flow from what I used to, but not a full 500 GPH.

 

[Spuds725]

The idea is to minimize detritus settling in it-- more then high flow-- so even if directing a small amount of "clean" water from say your skimmer to the RDSB, you should accomplish this...

I supply mine (a standard 5 gallon bucket) with a MJ 1200 so about 300 GPH--- I still get some detritus and have some filter feeders living in there

 

[nick18tjetta]

Great, many people mentioned "High flow" but there was never a quantative figure given to it, so I guess it would be safe to say anywhere from 200-400 gph would be fine.

Also, I believe Anthony Calfo said it was fine to have a mangrove planted in the bucket, and that light would be ok. I am just curious if anyone has tried the mangrove, the root systems do a lot to filter a system.

Nick

 

[DrBDC]

Mangroves are really just for looks. The amount of toxins removed is almost negligable. Fast way to determine is just to weight before and weigh it later. The increase is what was removed from the system and mangroves grow extremely slow compared to macro's.

 

[mr.wilson]

Denitrifying bacteria have difficulty competing with photosynthetic organisms, namely cyanobacteria. Nuisance algae should be eliminated from the DSB bucket for obvious reasons.

In theory, keeping the bucket dark will discourage algae and other competitors from populating the DSB. In practice, ambient light fails to penetrate beyond the first 1/4" of sand, so algae growth can only take place at the surface. It could become a maintenance issue, but it won't adversely affect denitrifying pseudomona colonies.

 

[BeanAnimal]

This thread has dragged on for over a year. Very few "RDSB In a Bucket" folks have come back with a full report. Those that have basically said ... "well the nitrates are down, but I added the RDSB, got a bigger skimmer and added x pounds of liverock and a fuge.... and have been using chemipure and nitrate mats too"

So as of yet we have no idea how MUCH work they DSB in a bucket is doing!

I do not doubt that these do some good... but I am looking for a "Hey this is the ONLY thing I changed and my nitrates are down from X to Y in Z months" Anybody?

Bean

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8817870#post8817870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
This thread has dragged on for over a year. Very few "RDSB In a Bucket" folks have come back with a full report. Those that have basically said ... "well the nitrates are down, but I added the RDSB, got a bigger skimmer and added x pounds of liverock and a fuge.... and have been using chemipure and nitrate mats too"

So as of yet we have no idea how MUCH work they DSB in a bucket is doing!

I do not doubt that these do some good... but I am looking for a "Hey this is the ONLY thing I changed and my nitrates are down from X to Y in Z months" Anybody?

Bean

I've been waiting for that post as well. Perhaps one of the people with a "success story" could take their RDSB bucket off line, and report if high nitrates return.

 

[a4twenty]

errrr, i don't want to take mine offline. when i set mine up i always had 20ppm nitrates. for months i did regular water changes but never got it below 15ppm ( right after change ). when i installed my RDSB i didn't change anything, i left my fuge overgrown and didn't trim. approx. 1 month later the nitrates started dropping and have been at 0 ever since.

i did upgrade my skimmer about 4 or 5 months after set up but that was because my other skimmer crapped out and was drastically under sized. the tank ran for 2 weeks without a skimmer and there was no increase in nitrates.


" but I am looking for a "Hey this is the ONLY thing I changed and my nitrates are down from X to Y in Z months" Anybody? "

a little while back someone did take theirs offline and said they would post back. i haven't heard anything yet.

 

[Lordhelmet]

i dont know if it is the answer to everyones prayers with nitrates but it's like a bigger skimmer, adding a fuge, and more water changes. every little bit helps and this is just another type of filtration that helps add to the stability of the water.

 

[EnderG60]

yeah, I will be putting another one up in a week or two using playsand to see what happens since my last beach sand bucket was actually causing algea and nitrate problems Once removed my nitrates went down to 15 and my sand stopped turning brown in two days.

It will be a similar setup, small powerhead with a sponge on it going through the carbon/phosphate reactor then to the bucket. Low flow(100gph ish).

But Im still wondering why anyone would put a "feeding tube" in the sandbed to add a carbon source like sugar?

 

[jrandreassen]

Hi...
I'm redesigning my sump and was planning on adding in a segment of DSB. It will be located under the Refugium (in low ambient light) it will be about 8"deep x 6" wide x 40" long(zig-zaging under the fuge).
Here is the real qustion though, will 800gph be too high ??
JR

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8823749#post8823749 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EnderG60
yeah, I will be putting another one up in a week or two using playsand to see what happens since my last beach sand bucket was actually causing algea and nitrate problems Once removed my nitrates went down to 15 and my sand stopped turning brown in two days.

It will be a similar setup, small powerhead with a sponge on it going through the carbon/phosphate reactor then to the bucket. Low flow(100gph ish).

But Im still wondering why anyone would put a "feeding tube" in the sandbed to add a carbon source like sugar?

The practice of importing a carbon source, is a whole other thread. I installed a feeding tube in a recent RDSB for future developments.

I've never added a carbon source, and perhaps never will, but if a target food comes along that has no residual and doesn't encourage nuisance algae, I'm in.

My feeding tube doubles as a passive water exchange and water sampling/testing conduit.

 

[EnderG60]

thread I saw that in was talking about using sugar to promote bacterial growth(which ive heard can have great result on nitrates but could effect coral color)

But ive also read that it might introduce oxygen to the an-ox layers of the sand.

Maybe ill just leave that part out of the next bucket.

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8823088#post8823088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lordhelmet
i dont know if it is the answer to everyones prayers with nitrates but it's like a bigger skimmer, adding a fuge, and more water changes. every little bit helps and this is just another type of filtration that helps add to the stability of the water.

Yes, but the question is, what quantifiable benefit is there. The same "space" or energy may be better used with another type of NNR or filtration... likewise a bigger RDSB may be in order instead of using the space for other equipment. I.E. a lot of folks have put this in place, but we have very little data about them.

 

[a4twenty]

i don't understand why you want to feed the bacteria? the idea is to have the bacteria feed on the nitrogen / nitrates, so wouldn't feeding it be counter productive?

 

[jrandreassen]

Hmm...
There was a post way back, that outlined it.
I think it was that the anaerobic bacteria used both carbon and NO3/NO2 as food and/or respiration.
JR