RichConley
New member
Sounds like the barebottom threads.
DSB in a bucket for nitrate control
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
Sounds like the barebottom threads.
jrandreassen
New member
Here are some ref's:
http://www.erdingtonaquatics.com/sandfiltration.html
http://www.wrc.org.za/archives/watersa archive/1999/July/jul99_p357.pdf
Ahh.... Found it...
In a post by Alfinus
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http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109&perpage=25&pagenumber=37
I have built numerous denitrifiers from coils to sand in the bucket methods of all types. To understand how they work you need to understand the bacteria. Anerobic bacteria do not consume nitrates as a food, but as an oxygen source. These bacteria evolved in a low oxygen envoriment, so through time they devoloped the means to extract oxygen from nitrates and producing the by-product of nitrogen gas. Even tho they need nitrate to lived they also need a food source, some type of carbon fuel. Thats my I always had better results with the bucket method if you could at least have a drip trickle coming out the bottom. I understand about over complicating, but even tho the nitrates will diffuse through the sand over time, organic carbons don't diffuse as easy and need some a little push through the sand. And btw the trickle will not effect anything as the areobic bacteria always are in the top couple inches and as they consume food they will consume all oxygen. Thats also why you need a little trickle because the anerobic will also comsume all the carbon food too, before the anerobic can. I am not saying the simply flow over method will not work, just a way to make it work better.
Even tho I have not tried it yet, vodka dosing at very small amounts over the rdsb should kick it into high gear also, since vodka is a high carbon food source.
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From Pg18 of bigining of thread posted by baryhc:
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http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109&perpage=25&pagenumber=18
I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but a lot of aquarists are, as evidenced in this thread in just the last page before my original post.
I will try, let's see how it goes.
Firstly, I was in error when I stated that the beginning of "denitrification" was in the Hypoxic or low oxygen zone.
I don't really know where we might say that "the beginning" of the denitrification process takes place. The process itself, however does take place at some depth, primarily in the anoxic zone of the bed.
The first statement should have been: "this is where the processing of Nitrate into other compounds begins. In effect, that is what I meant to be saying, and it is a good thing that we are getting that straightened out.
As I stated before ( originally ) in the "excerpt", this is where a lot of controversy begins.
EDIT: That is because the conversion of Nitrate to other compounds "begins" in the Hypoxic oxygen zone.
Too many aquarists are simply not familiar with this Low Oxygen zone, and this is why weatherman just explained about the fraction of a mm area where this is taking place.
My only intent with the entire original post, was to "clarify the definitions" of Oxygen Gradation Zones. That I did quite flawlessly, however, I stumbled over my shoelaces with the "beginning of denitrification" terminology. ( as well as the Nitrite to Nitrate part )
The terms "Aerobic and Anaerobic" refer to bacterial types and processes, whereas "Oxic and Anoxic" respectively, refer to the zones where these processes occur. These terms are used "in error" an awful lot, by aquarists and experts alike, causing a tremendous amount of confusion. Hypoxic is a rarely used but highly accurate term that correctly refers to "Low Oxygen", and eliminates a lot of confusion.
I hope we have that cleared up now, and that "WE" have correct terminology now available to use when discussing "Oxygenated Zones".
It's too bad that I contributed to the confusion myself to some degree, and I appreciate both yourself and Weatherman keeping me straightened up.
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Posted by Weatherman on Pg:17
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http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109&perpage=25&pagenumber=17
The standard definitions I'm familiar with are the following:
Aerobic Respiration:
(the conversion of ammonium to nitrite to nitrate in the presense of oxygen)
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 106O2 => 106 CO2 + 16 NH3 + PO4
(1a) 16 NH4+ + 24 O2 => 16 NO2- + 16 H2O + 32 H+
(1b) 16 NO2- + 8 O2 = 16 NO3
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 138 O2 => 106 CO2 + 16 HNO3 + H3PO4 + 122 H2O
Denitrification:
(conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas or ammonia in the absense of oxygen)
Nitrate Reduction by Denitrification
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 94.4 HNO3 -------106 CO2 + 55.5 N2 + H3PO4 + 177 H2O
Dissimilatory Nitrate Reduction to Ammonia
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 84.8 HNO3 -------106 CO2 + 42.4 N2 + 16 NH3 + H3PO4 + 148.4 H2O
http://www.erdingtonaquatics.com/sandfiltration.html
http://www.wrc.org.za/archives/watersa archive/1999/July/jul99_p357.pdf
Ahh.... Found it...
In a post by Alfinus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109&perpage=25&pagenumber=37
I have built numerous denitrifiers from coils to sand in the bucket methods of all types. To understand how they work you need to understand the bacteria. Anerobic bacteria do not consume nitrates as a food, but as an oxygen source. These bacteria evolved in a low oxygen envoriment, so through time they devoloped the means to extract oxygen from nitrates and producing the by-product of nitrogen gas. Even tho they need nitrate to lived they also need a food source, some type of carbon fuel. Thats my I always had better results with the bucket method if you could at least have a drip trickle coming out the bottom. I understand about over complicating, but even tho the nitrates will diffuse through the sand over time, organic carbons don't diffuse as easy and need some a little push through the sand. And btw the trickle will not effect anything as the areobic bacteria always are in the top couple inches and as they consume food they will consume all oxygen. Thats also why you need a little trickle because the anerobic will also comsume all the carbon food too, before the anerobic can. I am not saying the simply flow over method will not work, just a way to make it work better.
Even tho I have not tried it yet, vodka dosing at very small amounts over the rdsb should kick it into high gear also, since vodka is a high carbon food source.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Pg18 of bigining of thread posted by baryhc:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109&perpage=25&pagenumber=18
I'm not sure if you are missing anything, but a lot of aquarists are, as evidenced in this thread in just the last page before my original post.
I will try, let's see how it goes.
Firstly, I was in error when I stated that the beginning of "denitrification" was in the Hypoxic or low oxygen zone.
I don't really know where we might say that "the beginning" of the denitrification process takes place. The process itself, however does take place at some depth, primarily in the anoxic zone of the bed.
The first statement should have been: "this is where the processing of Nitrate into other compounds begins. In effect, that is what I meant to be saying, and it is a good thing that we are getting that straightened out.
As I stated before ( originally ) in the "excerpt", this is where a lot of controversy begins.
EDIT: That is because the conversion of Nitrate to other compounds "begins" in the Hypoxic oxygen zone.
Too many aquarists are simply not familiar with this Low Oxygen zone, and this is why weatherman just explained about the fraction of a mm area where this is taking place.
My only intent with the entire original post, was to "clarify the definitions" of Oxygen Gradation Zones. That I did quite flawlessly, however, I stumbled over my shoelaces with the "beginning of denitrification" terminology. ( as well as the Nitrite to Nitrate part )
The terms "Aerobic and Anaerobic" refer to bacterial types and processes, whereas "Oxic and Anoxic" respectively, refer to the zones where these processes occur. These terms are used "in error" an awful lot, by aquarists and experts alike, causing a tremendous amount of confusion. Hypoxic is a rarely used but highly accurate term that correctly refers to "Low Oxygen", and eliminates a lot of confusion.
I hope we have that cleared up now, and that "WE" have correct terminology now available to use when discussing "Oxygenated Zones".
It's too bad that I contributed to the confusion myself to some degree, and I appreciate both yourself and Weatherman keeping me straightened up.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Weatherman on Pg:17
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595109&perpage=25&pagenumber=17
The standard definitions I'm familiar with are the following:
Aerobic Respiration:
(the conversion of ammonium to nitrite to nitrate in the presense of oxygen)
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 106O2 => 106 CO2 + 16 NH3 + PO4
(1a) 16 NH4+ + 24 O2 => 16 NO2- + 16 H2O + 32 H+
(1b) 16 NO2- + 8 O2 = 16 NO3
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 138 O2 => 106 CO2 + 16 HNO3 + H3PO4 + 122 H2O
Denitrification:
(conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas or ammonia in the absense of oxygen)
Nitrate Reduction by Denitrification
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 94.4 HNO3 -------106 CO2 + 55.5 N2 + H3PO4 + 177 H2O
Dissimilatory Nitrate Reduction to Ammonia
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 84.8 HNO3 -------106 CO2 + 42.4 N2 + 16 NH3 + H3PO4 + 148.4 H2O
jrandreassen
New member
You're probably right, I'm not a biologist...
It was just what I could gather from reading the thread.
JR
It was just what I could gather from reading the thread.
JR
jrandreassen
New member
I'll let you know how mine goes...
I'm putting in a 6 1/2"W x 9"D x 90"L uder the fuge this week-end.
My NO2 is pretty high(40) right now, so I'm hoping it will make a substantial difference.
Question for the Guru's:
Should I seed the sand with some pure carbon ??
If so, how much ??
JR
I'm putting in a 6 1/2"W x 9"D x 90"L uder the fuge this week-end.
My NO2 is pretty high(40) right now, so I'm hoping it will make a substantial difference.
Question for the Guru's:
Should I seed the sand with some pure carbon ??
If so, how much ??
JR
tonym10
Premium Member
10 month update
Here is an old pic of my rdsb, set up to 10 months ago. My nitrates were hanging around 40ppm. After doing lots of water changes back then to drop them to 2ppm they were on the rise back up. So I tried the rdsb. Now 10 months later nitrates are undectible.
Here is an old pic of my rdsb, set up to 10 months ago. My nitrates were hanging around 40ppm. After doing lots of water changes back then to drop them to 2ppm they were on the rise back up. So I tried the rdsb. Now 10 months later nitrates are undectible.
the other tang
New member
Not sure i'm an expert by any means but i am seeding mine, i am building it now. Just a few more fttins' and I'm there. I also seeded mine with sand from my display, i attempted to siphon mainly from the bottom of the 4" bed in hopes of getting some useful bacteria. I think that might kick start this thing, but as always time will tell. The downside seems nil, I have dosed sugar for some time with no issues and sand from my system into the rdsb seems logical as well.
the other tang
New member
I just fired up my rdsb, I am using a 5g water container" which i highly recommend over a bucket" driven by a mj 1200. I am using 3/4" into the side and a 1" return out the top. My problem is I am getting a ton of air from my skimmer output into my mj. I have a hob styly skimmer with a 1 1/2" pvc output with an elbow on the end, i have my mj laying sideways with the intake actually sitting inside the skimmer return. I could easily move it out of the bubble filled skimmer stream but that would be defeating the purpose, right? Is this a real problem? The air would go in and move across the top toward the return never really getting near the sand. I'd love to get some opinions on this, thanks in advance.
Rusty
Rusty
BeltwayBandit
Member
I was perusing this thread (I read a lot of it but not all and did some searching for the rest). I saw where Anthony said that planting Mangroves in an RDSB would be OK. My question is what about shoal grass, Halodule wrightii, or similar. The reason I ask is I came across these grasses in an article on Nitrate in Advanced Aquarist. The article suggested that these grasses grow faster in environments with elevated nitrates, where other plants' and corals' growth may be stunted by such levels.
Now consider, most people consider using an RDSB when they are having nitrate issues. Would it increase the effectiveness of this setup to include a plant that also thrives in a high nitrate (relatively speaking) enironment to help reduce the levels? Or, possibly even allow for a larger tank volume to be handled by a smaller bucket? i.e. instead of a 5 gallon maxing out around 100 gallons, would the inclusion of sea grass increase the effective loading appreciably?
Now consider, most people consider using an RDSB when they are having nitrate issues. Would it increase the effectiveness of this setup to include a plant that also thrives in a high nitrate (relatively speaking) enironment to help reduce the levels? Or, possibly even allow for a larger tank volume to be handled by a smaller bucket? i.e. instead of a 5 gallon maxing out around 100 gallons, would the inclusion of sea grass increase the effective loading appreciably?
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
As TekCaT suggests, a DSB is affordable, "set it and forget it" technology. On the down side, they appear to require about a year to generate a stable population of pseudomonas to reduce nitrate. On the plus side, once the nitrate is reduced and a balance is established, the bacterial colony is capable of dieing back to a suitable size to govern the nitrate food source (a self regulating system).
Sea grasses are a great addition to your system, but they are to be treated as a separate entity with their own pros & cons. They can be high maintenance as they require harvesting, may need nitrate supplementation once they reduce existing nitrate, they require high intensity lighting that can cause over-heating and energy consumption, and they are very difficult to transplant successfully.
With patience a DSB may be all you need for nitrate reduction, but any other method certainly helps, especially one that can offer pro-botics and aesthetics.
Sea grasses are a great addition to your system, but they are to be treated as a separate entity with their own pros & cons. They can be high maintenance as they require harvesting, may need nitrate supplementation once they reduce existing nitrate, they require high intensity lighting that can cause over-heating and energy consumption, and they are very difficult to transplant successfully.
With patience a DSB may be all you need for nitrate reduction, but any other method certainly helps, especially one that can offer pro-botics and aesthetics.
a4twenty
Premium Member
on top of that wouldn't you need light for the sea grass to grow? i think it is very important to keep light out of your RDSB to avoid algae growth. since i've added my RDSB ( almost a year now ) i don't have to trim my macro. it doesn't grow very much at all any more, i'm actually worried it may just die.
Smokie 1118
Premium Member
WATER OVERFLOW!!!! I was so excited to try this. I have a killer skimmer but for some reason my nitrates are at 50 and I cannot get them any lower. So today I plumbed a 1/2" ID flexible hose to two 1" PVC pipes. The 1" PVC went into the bucket and it was reduced to 1/2" flexible pipe for both the water pump line and overflow line. Everything ran smoothly for two hours and then there was so much air in the drain pipe that the water stopped draining. However the pump kept pumping. Need less to say I had quit the mess. Anyone else have this problem and how do you get air out of the drain pipe?
new RDSB
new RDSB
I just got mine started. I used a 5 gal Ocean Salt bucket and used uniseals. The 1" infeed and discharge are at 12 n and 2 pm (looking down on top). Both have a 90 degree elbow so the water flows around the top and out the discharge. I thought this might give a little more residence time. I have 2" very fine sand at the bottom and 6" of Lowe's sand above that and 2" crushed coral to keep it in place. I had a devil of a time getting the top to seal. Used Oatey teflon paste. My starting Nitrates are 40 (down from 80 with water changes and nitrasorb). My bucket is in a closed loop following a torpedo filter with carbon and right now bacteria and a flow rate of about 550gph. I have a 55g with 3" maroon (two GBT anemones as best friends), 2 perculas, 4" regal tang, 2.5" coral beauty angel, and 2 blue green chromis. I am just starting to add corals so Coral Beauty Angel might be moving on. I will track the nitrates and let you know my decline rate.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Bob
new RDSB
I just got mine started. I used a 5 gal Ocean Salt bucket and used uniseals. The 1" infeed and discharge are at 12 n and 2 pm (looking down on top). Both have a 90 degree elbow so the water flows around the top and out the discharge. I thought this might give a little more residence time. I have 2" very fine sand at the bottom and 6" of Lowe's sand above that and 2" crushed coral to keep it in place. I had a devil of a time getting the top to seal. Used Oatey teflon paste. My starting Nitrates are 40 (down from 80 with water changes and nitrasorb). My bucket is in a closed loop following a torpedo filter with carbon and right now bacteria and a flow rate of about 550gph. I have a 55g with 3" maroon (two GBT anemones as best friends), 2 perculas, 4" regal tang, 2.5" coral beauty angel, and 2 blue green chromis. I am just starting to add corals so Coral Beauty Angel might be moving on. I will track the nitrates and let you know my decline rate.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Bob
Roy G. Biv
Premium Member
I skimmed through almost the entire thread... I have 2 giant megaflows on my tank, the bottom 18" is water. Can I fill these with sand and get the same results? Seems like useless space anyway.
Smokie 1118
Premium Member
Fixed my overflow......Put at 1" PVC with a 1" ID large flexible tube....Have a larger overflow than the infeed!!!
Malifluous
New member
For those of you that have taken down the RDSB, Did u find any bad smell or detritus accumulation iside it?
the other tang
New member
RDSB update, DO NOT USE a 5g blue water jug from walmart. They simply can't handle the pressure. It bulged as soon as I fired it up and I assumed the round "ish" shape would help it to hold. WRONG, it started leaking on Thursday so it lived some 16 days. The good thing about this experiment is I can definatelty say it was showing signs of working. I know it was not fully seeded in that short time, but the fact that I seeded it throughout with ls from the deepest part of my bed had some impact. In those 2 weeks, i went from showing 30ppm nitrate down to 10ppm. I kept the same schedule on waterchanges and changed nothing else. I will now plan my next container. Any ideas? I have to believe I would get the same pressure issue with a 5g bucket. I believe the flat bottom and lid would be the weak link, right?
