DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[BeltwayBandit]

"As TekCaT suggests, a DSB is affordable, "set it and forget it" technology."

While I agree that the basic RDSB is set it and forget it, space is at a premium for me. If I am alocating space to something and I can get multiple uses from it then why not try it? My question was more along the lines of how can you maximize the use of an RDSB type of setup. Our reef club just had Barry from clamsdirect come speak over the weekend and now I am thinking about possibly using some hippopus clams as well in the RDSB. (again lighting isn't an issue since I converted a 'fuge in a bucket' to a RDSB so I already have a light (19w PC floodlight) and two mangroves in there).

The hippopus clams require very little light and appear to be among the better denitrators among the giant clams (anecdotaly, I don't know of any solid reference for this).

So far I have identified three things that I am looking to try in my RDSB Mangroves (has been done before), seagrass, and hipoppus clams. I'll be curious to see the results.

 

[the other tang]

BB, please post the results. I am curious too. I assume you read the thread, something I am looking to add to the next evolution is argronite. The low ph in the bottom of the rdsb will be able to dissolve the argronite which is a big deal for me, I don't run a ractor and like you wast them most from any space I allocate to. Any one have suggestions of a good container for a hob style loop? The pressure killed my last"see above" experiment.

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9053068#post9053068 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by the other tang
BB, please post the results. I am curious too. I assume you read the thread, something I am looking to add to the next evolution is argonite. The low ph in the bottom of the rdsb will be able to dissolve the argronite which is a big deal for me, I don't run a ractor and like you wast them most from any space I allocate to. Any one have suggestions of a good container for a hob style loop? The pressure killed my last"see above" experiment.

Localized acidity in the substrate has only a nominal impact on buffering PH up. If you have a high demand for calcium & carbonates this will be too little, too late.

Calcium reactors deliver a PH of 6.5 over a great area with a flow through for maximum exposure. The dissolution rate in a calcium reactor is about 50% of the media per year. The dissolution rate of media in a DSB is about 5% per year.

The bacteria that reduces ammonia develops in weeks, the bacteria that reduces nitrite takes months, but the bacteria that reduces nitrate takes about a year to grow to a formidable colony. Your reduction in nitrate is likely due to the detritus you removed with the sand when you set-up the Walmart container.

 

[BeltwayBandit]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9053068#post9053068 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by the other tang
BB, please post the results. I am curious too. I assume you read the thread, something I am looking to add to the next evolution is argronite. The low ph in the bottom of the rdsb will be able to dissolve the argronite which is a big deal for me, I don't run a ractor and like you wast them most from any space I allocate to. Any one have suggestions of a good container for a hob style loop? The pressure killed my last"see above" experiment.

Ok.. well I guess a good place to start is at the beginning. I used 60lbs of oolitic aragonite sand (caribsea to be exact) in an old 200gal IO salt bucket. I have 2 mangroves planted in the sand and the setup is lighted by a 19w PC floodlight (don't remember the manufacturer but got the lead from Melev's site). Currently Nitrates are between 5-10 PPM (running 5 days no change) with an old (3+ years) Salifert test kit. I will be getting a newer kit in the near future and will update the results accordingly. I am waffling on ordering seagrass right now due to being the wrong season for collection (seahorse.org had a post recommending against buying seagrasses in the wintertime since most are wild harvested in Florida). Plus of a more practical nature, will be purchasing as a part of a group buy with my local reef club and many other items at the online vendor are also out of stock due to the season. I will post test info as I get it, and will update with stocking info on my RDSB/denitrator combinations as I work through them.

BB

 

[teggs]

Wow ... 50 pages!

I'm actually a FW fishkeeper and never had a marine tank (one day though) ...

I already have 2 coil denitrators on my 200G monster tank and I want to try a RDSB due to my extreme bioload. I have everything ready and will be "plugging it in" tonight.

Thanks to Captain Calfo and all the other enthusiasts that made this thread and RC the bext place for marine info in the world..

Andrew

 

[TekCat]

Silica sand could be used instead of aragonite if one worries about aragonate disolution.

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9060038#post9060038 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TekCat
Silica sand could be used instead of aragonite if one worries about aragonate disolution.

Good point. Non-calcarious media has the benefit of never turning into concrete slabs. Glass beads as used for sand blasting may be another viable altenative.

 

[the other tang]

I do not have a huge calcium demand as many others on here do, I really only have to dose a bit of calcium at waterchanges and all is well. I use a small ammount of kalk too and thats it. I will take the 5% as a plus in my situation, I have no need for a reactor at this point. If these things truly have a two year life span, then let it solidify in my case it doesn't matter. It will be coming out in two years anyway.

Mr Wilson, I have to believe between the seeding and sugar dosing something as happening.I fully agree that it was far from a mature colony. I failed to report in my post that my nitrates shot back up almost instantly when I took the rsdb offline. No other changes were made. When i siphoned the sand out of my display for seeding I got one spot that was piled up in the front corner "approx 2-4 lbsof sand"and never moved the tube, providing I had a deterius problem it seems that amount being removed would have little impact. I put it in layers as I was filling the container with silica, as well as a total of 1/2 tbsp of sugar.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9043320#post9043320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by the other tang
RDSB update, DO NOT USE a 5g blue water jug from walmart. They simply can't handle the pressure. It bulged as soon as I fired it up and I assumed the round "ish" shape would help it to hold. WRONG, it started leaking on Thursday so it lived some 16 days. The good thing about this experiment is I can definatelty say it was showing signs of working. I know it was not fully seeded in that short time, but the fact that I seeded it throughout with ls from the deepest part of my bed had some impact. In those 2 weeks, i went from showing 30ppm nitrate down to 10ppm. I kept the same schedule on waterchanges and changed nothing else. I will now plan my next container. Any ideas? I have to believe I would get the same pressure issue with a 5g bucket. I believe the flat bottom and lid would be the weak link, right?

How are you setting yours up? There really shouldnt be any pressure?

 

[the other tang]

The head X the area will give you quite a bit, the jug was tight as a drum once filled. I don't have a pressure calculator anymore but someone took the time to do the long math back oh 20 pages or so, and it was allot more than you'd think. I can't remember the exact # but it was pretty high.

I set up a simple loop, mj1200 out of display to rdsb via 3/4" tubing, returning in 1". There was no restriction other than the unavoidable ones, such as the container itself. I will start on 5g bucket tonight, using the good old style IO salt buckets with the ratcheting gasket sealed lid, before they went to cheap lids.

 

[RichConley]

There shouldnt be any pressure, like maybe 1 PSI. Sand only weighs like 12 lbs/gallon.

5 Gallons is 60lbs or so, so we're looking at 60 lbs over a bucket that is 10 inches across. Thats like 80 square inches, so less than 1 PSI.


Are you using it like a cannister filter? With it sealed and water being pushed back up to the tank?
Even so, we're still only looking at a couple PSI

 

[TekCat]

Question on securing sand. Would it make sense to lay plastic window screen on top of the fine sand (like pulverized limestone) to keep it in place?

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9064237#post9064237 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TekCat
Question on securing sand. Would it make sense to lay plastic window screen on top of the fine sand (like pulverized limestone) to keep it in place?

Proper flow rates wouldn't be conducive to a sand storm, even with the finest of grades. A layer of coarse sand/gravel at the top would keep it down, and provide a better environment for zooplankton.

You may even want to try a few inches of rubble rock if you don't have a benthic invertebrate zone anywhere else in your system.

 

[the other tang]

1 psi is not accurate without whatever pressure the pump adds or any restrictions in the tubing after the container. A good rule of thumb is 1/2lb per ft + head pressure. That alone is 2 psi, again before you turn on the pump, I need to find my old pressure calculator program and then i could give an accurate figure. It doesn't take too much pressure to rupture such a container, i have seen a steel 55g drum blow from 15psi air pressure. Simply too much surface area, the same applies here.

It seems to me that course sand is the best option rather than rubble, if and deterius made it into the rsdb it would certainly collect in the rubble. FWIW I has 0 sand geting into my return, I had a carbon filter with foam at the dump that stayed clean over the 16 day trial.

 

[TekCat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9069796#post9069796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
You may even want to try a few inches of rubble rock if you don't have a benthic invertebrate zone anywhere else in your system.

That's interesting idea, but wont large rubble collect detrius? Yes, I know, increase the flow,... but rather than tinker with it, laying screen might be easier. Do you think screen could get clogged up with junk too?

 

[the other tang]

I'd say it would get clogged. again i had a mj120 on mine and got no sandstorm. Mine had a 4' vertical climb to the tank out of the rsdb that helped if there was anything loose. A better way to manage the flow might be either a spraybar or direct the flow at the container itself providing you are sure your water has no particles in it, such as the return from the skimmer.

 

[TekCat]

gotcha, ... dropping stupid idea with screen

 

[the other tang]

correction mj 1200

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9071979#post9071979 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TekCat
That's interesting idea, but wont large rubble collect detrius? Yes, I know, increase the flow,... but rather than tinker with it, laying screen might be easier. Do you think screen could get clogged up with junk too?

Your RDSB should be located at a point in your sump where there is no detritus to be imported. If you cannot do so with your existing system, add a small mechanical filter.

I don't see a benefit to moving any more than 50 GPH over the sand bed. We want to keep it anaerobic with a long contact time. I would use a bleeder valve on an existing pump, rather than add a new dedicated pump just for that purpose.

 

[the other tang]

OK , I made my 5g bucket version but it failed the leak test. I used the old style ratcheting gasket seal IO salt bucket. Thinking it just might seal. WRONG! It leaked from the head pressure alone, I didn't even get to start the pump. I don't have a sump, and have DIY'ed a HOB style plumbing setup. I am probably just going to silicon the heck out of it tonight, but would like to be able to open it if needed later. Is there another way? If not i'm sure the silicon will do the job.