DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[percula99]

I'm glad it helps you Kathy. A couple more points if I may. My sump is on the ground under my tank so I raised the RDSB on bricks, under the garbage bags that you see sticking out under the RDSB. The Mag5 pumps water up, and is controlled with a ball valve to make sure I get just the right amount of water. My return hole is drilled slightly lower to allow water to be gravity fed back into the sump. Good luck.

 

[dendro982]

I somehow missed a part about cycling this remote sandbed - how to start it without plumbing to the main tank until ammonia spike does down?
Why I'm expecting ammonia:
Last week I assembled the new 5g tank with the water and LR from established tank, only 5 LB on CaribSea bagged live sand were new - there was ammonia growth in a day.

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9441959#post9441959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dendro982
I somehow missed a part about cycling this remote sandbed - how to start it without plumbing to the main tank until ammonia spike does down?
Why I'm expecting ammonia:
Last week I assembled the new 5g tank with the water and LR from established tank, only 5 LB on CaribSea bagged live sand were new - there was ammonia growth in a day.

If you have ammonia in one day, you should test your sand and source (tank) water.

With only 5 gallons of water, you could easily change the water daily for a week to keep it down. Move a few more rocks, or an aging carbon or mechanical filter to that tank to assure you have a viable bacteria culture.

Nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria populate detritus attached to a stable site, not the site itself, so transfer the established media carefully. With no load on the RDSB you should have no ammonia.

An older established sand bed may be rich in bound phosphates, but absorption media will remove it. Your LFS or fellow reefer should be able to supply you with a portion of their established sand bed. This will cut months off of your waiting time, and provide a phosphate export and renewed buffering capacity to the donor tank.

 

[dendro982]

Ammonia in the tank-donor's water is zero, the new tank was not fed this day, then the CaribSea Ocean Direct live sand is a source of this ammonia, right? How else can I test the sand?

Just bought sugar-sized aragonite sand (Aragamax) and more of Ocean Direct live sand, for DSB in a bucket. What will be the safe procedure, causing no ammonia in the main tank - just connect the newly filled DSD bucket to the sump, or fill with water, place there heater and a pump and wait for a couple of days (doubtfully, that temperature will be held - there are no significant water movement within the sand)?

 

[mr.wilson]

It looks like Caribbsea might add ammonia and water to the sand to feed the bacteria alleged bacteria culture.

If ammonia is still present when it reaches the end user, it's safe to assume there is no viable nitrifying bacteria in the bag. With no nitrifying bacteria, there is no place for denitrifying bacteria to fit into the food chain.

Perhaps the include ammonium chloride to help start the cycling process for a new tank. The anaerobic conditions in the bag don't allow for nitrification, so the ammonia remains intact.

 

[dendro982]

That was fast!
Still, what to do (safely) - set the sand in a bigger rubbermaid container with pump and heater and cycle it, and after the cycling finishes - transfer all into the bucket and connect to the main tank?
Thanks.

 

[the other tang]

I'd think that cycling it then moving it would disturb the layers of dif bacteria that have grown in the bed. I'd rather put the sand in the bucket and recirculate the water to and from another bucket. You could set your bucket in a rubbermaid and let it overflow into it. If you want to keep the bacteria coming, do small wc's and use the old tank water for this when you do the change. Once this is set up I don't think it is to be disturbed. IMO

 

[dendro982]

I didn't thought about that - good idea, will do.
Thanks!

 

[ThomasinKind]

Finished all 54 pages of this thread. Very interesting and simple idea. I think I'm going to try this on my setup. IMO the more simple things are the better.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.

 

[TankRazr]

Re: new RDSB or RDSB v. TBPC w/right now

Re: new RDSB or RDSB v. TBPC w/right now

I feel this is pertinent to the RDSB discussion, however I understand if the powers that be feel it needs to be its own thread.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9032666#post9032666 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Safedad
My starting Nitrates are 40 (down from 80 with water changes and nitrasorb). My bucket is in a closed loop following a torpedo filter with carbon and right now bacteria and a flow rate of about 550gph. I have a 55g with 3" maroon (two GBT anemones as best friends), 2 perculas, 4" regal tang, 2.5" coral beauty angel, and 2 blue green chromis. I am just starting to add corals so Coral Beauty Angel might be moving on. I will track the nitrates and let you know my decline rate.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Bob

Safedad,

I'm curious about your thoughts on your experience using the Right Now* bacteria with the TBP**Carbon system. For example did you expect to have nitrates this high with this system?

I'm curious because if I understand you correctly you are looking to lower your nitratres with a RDSB bucket. Which would indicate to me the TBPC system may not be performing as well as one would hope.

Having said that, and if I understand you correctly, your position as stated in your post above appears to negate some, but perhaps not all, of the claims of the right now bacteria and thus the need for it. Are we assuming a little over 9lbs of TBPC? Your turn over and flow looked in line with manufacturers recommendations.

According to the accounts on this thread the RDSB "bucket" method, an approximate $20.00 investment, appears to work well when properly set up. So at the very least it appears as though one could acheive better results for removing nitrates with a RDSB at a fraction of the money spent on the media and equipment needed to run the TBP Carbon system. What are your thoughts?

I do not ask to put you on the spot or to be argumentative. I, like perhaps many people here at RC or in the hobby, am just looking to learn from others (actual experience) in the hopes of acheiveing optimal results for my system(s). I, again like many others, am always intrigued with new, unusual, counter intuitive or perhaps even forgotten approaches.

Thanks for your input.



TankRazr


*Right Now is a desinger bacteria developed for the waste water treatment industry, and marketed on a limited basis to the home aqaurium industry as a 24 hour cycling product.

**TBP Carbon is = Tri-Based Pelletized Carbon...a substrate for the colonizing of bacteria. I believe also desinged initially for the waste water treament industry and also marketed on a limited basis in the home aquarium industry.

 

[Safedad]

TBPC and RDSB

TBPC and RDSB

TankRazr: A fair question. I have been able to get the system to run for about 6 months at a time. I have been piddling with it most of the time because of the noise and splashing of the return (which is needed to replace O2 deleted by the bacteria). About a year ago the carbon got crudded up because I didn't backflush it. I now backflush about monthly. That seemed to be the beginning of my problems. I have added a sump (am on my third version now) to contain the splashing and add water volume. I have gone from a Filstar xp3 to a 42 gallon rubbemaid tub to hold things. I have upgraded from the filstar to a 70 Iwaki. I pump to the tank and split off some of the flow to the torpedo and RDSB. I have added a Mag 12 because I didn't feel I had enought flow through the SCWD (which just stopped switching). I have added an auto topoff. I will get some new bacteria this week. I will let you know how my nitrates are in about a month. If they are down I will leave things alone and go into a maintenance mode through the summer. If they don't come down, I will probably switch over to a protein skimmer. Of course, I would like to upgrade to a 90 gallon tank so I can get some more clams (need room in front of the rock). You can decide for yourself whether it has been a fair test.
Will keep you all posted

 

[Jamokie01]

Just a quick question that I dont believe has been brought up. As far as the eventual leaching of phosphates from the sand goes, this is because phosphate binds with the calcium in aragonite, correct? If that is the case, why then is silica based sand (play sand) not used? Phosphate will not bind with the silica as it does the calcium, right? When the idea of a RDSB was firts presented to me I was told any sand would be fine, so if this isnt being utilized as a buffer, why not use silica based sand?

Thanks for any replies.

 

[Safedad]

Nitrates update

Nitrates update

Just a quick note. Day 1 nitrates at 40. Added a bottle of Right Now bacteria. Day 2 nitrates still at 40. Day 3 nitrates down to 20. Not low enough, but moving in the right direction.

 

[Mr. Gil]

Highjacking a thread??? Sounds ridiculous. Is that illegal or considered a terrorist act? In my opinion there is no such thing. It's called a debate and sharing information. Besides your DSB bucket is a good idea and so is adding sugar to reduce nitrates in a reef is also a good idea i thik even better and even simplistic along with cost effective. Bucket idea requires plumbing, not to mention taking up space aroung the reef tank. We're dealing with water chemistry so if adding sugar has been proven to significantly reduce nitrate without any affects to corals or live stock and water chemistry than I would respect the idea and not try to criticize the person trying to share that to the hobby. You can have this mealy thread of yours, you seem like the possessive type and thats just my opinion.

 

[DgenR8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9667294#post9667294 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Gil
Highjacking a thread??? Sounds ridiculous. Is that illegal or considered a terrorist act? In my opinion there is no such thing. It's called a debate and sharing information. Besides your DSB bucket is a good idea and so is adding sugar to reduce nitrates in a reef is also a good idea i thik even better and even simplistic along with cost effective. Bucket idea requires plumbing, not to mention taking up space aroung the reef tank. We're dealing with water chemistry so if adding sugar has been proven to significantly reduce nitrate without any affects to corals or live stock and water chemistry than I would respect the idea and not try to criticize the person trying to share that to the hobby. You can have this mealy thread of yours, you seem like the possessive type and thats just my opinion.

You seem awfully familiar with the players here, not to mention this very long thread, considering that was your first post at RC.

 

[bilge rat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7853951#post7853951 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crrichey
It could, it is often a reason that people will add sand to begin with. It is why people use phosphate reactors in BB systems. I'm not sure about its effects on denitryfication. If your levels of phosphate were high enough to effect this process than you would already be in deep trouble This is why the bucket idea is so nice, it is very simple to just replace the bucket with a new one with new sand, all new substrate for phosphate to bind to.

I am reading the 40+ page posts on DSB...very informative!
i am planning on setting up a DSB dk and lt
I dont have an overflow and wont be drilling for one either,
so this only leaves the dreaded siphon...i have never ever been able to match the flow from the return pump with the sipon..and knowing that the siphon could fail at any time makes me nervous anyway..
-in order to keep the sand moving in the dark/bucket DSB wont you
need critters in there to keep it moving?
-can anything that stirs the sand live in the darkness of the bucket?
-is there a pump/brand that is so sensitive in terms of flow adjustment
that it is recomended for this type of app?
-other then drilling for an overflow or siphon is there another option for
to and fro flow for a DSB?
thanks
joshuah

 

[the other tang]

Yes there are other options, but I honestly don't recomend them. Read my posts on this struggle a few pages back. The siphon quickly becomes the secondary issue. It is hard to find a reasonably priced container that will hold under the pressure " how much has been debated in previous pages". I chose to run a maxi in the tank to the rsdb and dump into my hob powerfilter, it worked well till the container busted.

IMO there is no reason to add a sand stirrer to a rdsb, they will eventually die and become a nitrate spike. Long run for a short slide.

 

[elegance coral]

I am new to this sight and not sure how to do this but I am trying to answer JAMOKIE01's question.
Silica sand has very few pores. The bacteria would be limited to the surface of the grains. With calcium based media the bacteria could live on and within the grains. You would need much more silica sand than calcium based sand to provide the same surface area. It is my appenion that Phospate binding with the calcium based sand is a good thing. The fact that at some point it may begin to leach this phospate back into the system is of no concern to me. Activated carbon can begin to leach its cargo back into our systems but we still use it, and carbon will do this far faster than aragonite. Unless your top off water or food you place in the aquarium is full of phospate you shouldn't have any worries. If it made you feel better you could change part of the sand every year or two. One more point about silica sand is that it can leach silicate into the water. Golden diatoms(that ugly golden brown slimy algae looking stuff) uses silicate in its structure. High levels of silicate in the water can produce these algae blooms. I went through this a long time ago and it took me forever to figure out why I couldn't get rid of this stuff.

 

[Jamokie01]

Silica sand does not leech silicates into the water.

 

[elegance coral]

I hope you'r right. I looked through some of my books this morning and can't find what i'm looking for. I'll do more research on this when I get home from work today. I know that in my first reef i had a bad problem with this algae and read about silicates in the water. I removed one silica based rock from the tank and my problem went with it. I know this is not proof that the rock was to blame.
Man, this is really gonna suck if I'm wrong. I have been telling people for years to stay away from silica based materials. I hate being wrong!