DSB in a bucket for nitrate control
- Thread starter Hobster
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Fred_J
New member
I don't go to Daytona or Myrtle beach any more. It's way to crowded for me. I do ride to an awful lot of parties with my club. When another M/C comes to one of our parties we reciprocate and go to their parties. It takes a lot of planing in January to get the party schedule set up.
Fred
Fred
Mr Bojangles
New member
Well I have read threw all of the post and this weekend set up my own, I really donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know why everyone is trying to make this so difficult, just put some sand in a bucket, and have water flow over it.
I used a red sea salt bucket since its square, and just used the output from my skimmer into it so there is no ditrus buildup. I also used a larger grain sand on top to keep the sand from blowing away. My only concern is that my flow is slow, maybe 100gph. Any thoughts?
I used a red sea salt bucket since its square, and just used the output from my skimmer into it so there is no ditrus buildup. I also used a larger grain sand on top to keep the sand from blowing away. My only concern is that my flow is slow, maybe 100gph. Any thoughts?
The fast flow is so detritus won't settle... skimmer effluent should be pretty clean.. you should be fine IMO...
My 6 1/2 week update.... nitrates are virtually unchanged--- as I said before though, they aren't increasing which is at least a small plus....
Hoping to get my macro fuge installed real soon and start getting some nitrate export going that way too, if anything, I'll add a bucket refugium in the same loop as the sand bucket..... been real busy..
My 6 1/2 week update.... nitrates are virtually unchanged--- as I said before though, they aren't increasing which is at least a small plus....
Hoping to get my macro fuge installed real soon and start getting some nitrate export going that way too, if anything, I'll add a bucket refugium in the same loop as the sand bucket..... been real busy..
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I think the slow flow will work great. In fact you might get more "contact time" with the slower flow. I'm paralleling it with a skimmer somewhat but maybe slower flow will allow more of the lower water to mix. Who knows, thats why we are experimenting on this thread. I think I speak for everyone when I say we would all appreciate you posting results, whether positive or negative.
XeniaMania
Active member
I'm still perplexed at how water can exchange at an effective rate 12"-24" down...
I get a bottle of DeNitrate. drill holes in the bottom of the bottle, and drill 1 hole in the lid. Feed a 2mm or smaller tubing into it with water siphoned out of my refugium. The water then flows at a rate of 1-2GPH, but at least it's completely flowing through and it's slow enough for the top layer of bacteria to absorb most of the oxygen.
I get a bottle of DeNitrate. drill holes in the bottom of the bottle, and drill 1 hole in the lid. Feed a 2mm or smaller tubing into it with water siphoned out of my refugium. The water then flows at a rate of 1-2GPH, but at least it's completely flowing through and it's slow enough for the top layer of bacteria to absorb most of the oxygen.
XeniaMania
The water coming in and leaving is *almost* the exact same. Its that very little bit that changes that we are interested in. The exchange happens by knowing that things of a lower density migrate to a higher density (or the other way around, its been a while) anyway the water will move around under the sand but it will be a slow rate.
To better understand an example is in order. Someone else posted this, but as an example ...
Take your bucket and put a few drops of red foodcoloring in the bottom.
Fill the bucket full of sand and then water
Start the RDSB just as it is normally and I guarantee that eventually the water coming out will be red
It would be the same with low/no oxygen water, it just takes time
The water coming in and leaving is *almost* the exact same. Its that very little bit that changes that we are interested in. The exchange happens by knowing that things of a lower density migrate to a higher density (or the other way around, its been a while) anyway the water will move around under the sand but it will be a slow rate.
To better understand an example is in order. Someone else posted this, but as an example ...
Take your bucket and put a few drops of red foodcoloring in the bottom.
Fill the bucket full of sand and then water
Start the RDSB just as it is normally and I guarantee that eventually the water coming out will be red
It would be the same with low/no oxygen water, it just takes time
XeniaMania
Active member
Huh...interesting example but pt taken. Ty..
Boat
New member
Ty,
I kind of agree with you on questioning how efficient that exchange rate is but I understand eshook's point too. Hopefully, someday when I can move my tank and space permits I'm going to try a "flow through" design - just to see. I think the idea of the rdsb is going to be around for a while - I think they'll work.
I kind of agree with you on questioning how efficient that exchange rate is but I understand eshook's point too. Hopefully, someday when I can move my tank and space permits I'm going to try a "flow through" design - just to see. I think the idea of the rdsb is going to be around for a while - I think they'll work.
Boat
Are you a Spartan? I did my Masters there in engineering.
Sorry to sabatoge the thread for a minute. I think this is a great way of lowering Nitrates in your reef tank. I don't have one set up at the moment, but I'm planning to set mine back up this summer and am definetly planning to add in a RDSB.
I would like to continue to hear peoples successes and failures with this technique.
Are you a Spartan? I did my Masters there in engineering.
Sorry to sabatoge the thread for a minute. I think this is a great way of lowering Nitrates in your reef tank. I don't have one set up at the moment, but I'm planning to set mine back up this summer and am definetly planning to add in a RDSB.
I would like to continue to hear peoples successes and failures with this technique.
This hasn't changed. The combination method still looks the best. Reduce Nitrate with "flow over", and eliminate nasties with "flow thru to waste". Moderate flow would be best. Higher flow will cause advection into the sand bed ( the nitrification will occur deeper ) and more denitrification will occur.
The denitrification occurs at a rate per area "X" by time. 1/2 the flow will reduce the nitrate level twice as much per gallon times half the gallons. No change. Higher flow has the same problem, except for the deeper penetration, which would give a bit higher reduction rate.
> Barry
Thanks Marcello---
but anyone that posts their results, I'm sure everyone would appreciate setup details...
Tank size, Time since RDSB installed, sand type, sand volume or weight, starting nitrates and current values.
I think it would be pertinent also if anyone is using alternate nitrate export methods... (growing macro algae)...
I think this info would be most helpful to those setting this up so they can copy and if necessary multiply the sand bed size in an attempt to replicate your results....especially if showing success.
Thanks to everyone that does posts back their results...
With that being said..
135 gallon tank (about 180-200 lbs live rock)
50 pounds of quikrete white play sand (silica) in a bucket
Installed 1/3/06-- 30 ppm NO3
as of 2/19/06-- 30 ppm NO3
No macro at this time-- very little (micro) algae in my tank also.
Updated update
Updated update
Sorry Spuds. I had thought since I had posted a week or two ago, I wouldn't need to repost the details.
Installed the RDSB back in December with readings 40-50-60. Two weeks ago Nitrates were around 20. This weekend they were somewhere around 15.
I have a 72 gallon bow front with a 15 gallon sump/fuge. The RDSB is a 5 gallon bucket filled 3/4 with sand I picked up from a local reefer that used it to make agrocrete rocks. Pushing water through it with a fluval 404.
As for inhabitants, I've got a Koran Angel which is in the process of converting to his adult colors, a Large tang, 2 percula's, a fat and happy mandarin, and a blenny. Several different shrimp, and an assorted cleanup crew which probably needs to be replenished.
Neither my tank nor sump have a DSB in them. Main tank has a 1-2" layer of CC, and the sump is bare.
I don't think the RDSB did it all by itself. I do 10-15 gallon water changes weekly. I've been doing that since I started the tank. I think the RDSB has made it so the water changes are making more of an impact.
Marcelo -
Updated update
Sorry Spuds. I had thought since I had posted a week or two ago, I wouldn't need to repost the details.
Installed the RDSB back in December with readings 40-50-60. Two weeks ago Nitrates were around 20. This weekend they were somewhere around 15.
I have a 72 gallon bow front with a 15 gallon sump/fuge. The RDSB is a 5 gallon bucket filled 3/4 with sand I picked up from a local reefer that used it to make agrocrete rocks. Pushing water through it with a fluval 404.
As for inhabitants, I've got a Koran Angel which is in the process of converting to his adult colors, a Large tang, 2 percula's, a fat and happy mandarin, and a blenny. Several different shrimp, and an assorted cleanup crew which probably needs to be replenished.
Neither my tank nor sump have a DSB in them. Main tank has a 1-2" layer of CC, and the sump is bare.
I don't think the RDSB did it all by itself. I do 10-15 gallon water changes weekly. I've been doing that since I started the tank. I think the RDSB has made it so the water changes are making more of an impact.
Marcelo -
Fred_J
New member
Barry--Why did you spend so much time researching this. Are you planning on publishing something on RDSB? I know it's none of my business but I'm just curious about spending that much time. I don't doubt the amount of time you say you spent, I've seen some of your discussions. Don't take this as an an attack or disrespect, I normally would not even ask, but the pain pills I just took for my back are taking away my inhibitions.
I will not take offense if you say it's none of my business, just very curious.
Fred
I will not take offense if you say it's none of my business, just very curious.
Fred
<Speculation>
If Barry is anything like me he is just a curious person and would like to help contribute to the reef community. I wouldn't blame him if he publishes something after all is said and done, because he has definitely put enough effort into it to publish something. It just takes a lot of time in writing and research (I like the research not the writing) but he might...
</Speculation>
I plan on writing a small article for my website in a week or two on the subject. I'm sure it won't be as detailed as what Barry could write, but I will try to condense at least some of the information.
I'm done rambling ...
If Barry is anything like me he is just a curious person and would like to help contribute to the reef community. I wouldn't blame him if he publishes something after all is said and done, because he has definitely put enough effort into it to publish something. It just takes a lot of time in writing and research (I like the research not the writing) but he might...
</Speculation>
I plan on writing a small article for my website in a week or two on the subject. I'm sure it won't be as detailed as what Barry could write, but I will try to condense at least some of the information.
I'm done rambling ...
The time I've spent is not restricted to RDSB, but includes DSB, Plenums, Wasting Plenums, RUGF, Bioligical Phosphate Removal, waste treatment, various denitrator schemes, Vodka dosing ( heaven forbid ), and Substrate compositions including Industrial Glass Beads ( my favorite ).
Even so, it is like pulling teeth from a Wolverine to get information about the Anaerobic processes that occur after nitrification. The Hypoxic ( low oxygen ) process for Nitrite to Nitrate is fairly straight forward, after that many people think that Nitrogen gas is produced, but that is one of many possible pathways for processing, and it is not reliably the most common.
I own a business, and I solve problems. If I solve them well, I have a lot of time on my hands. I solve them well.
> Barry
Even so, it is like pulling teeth from a Wolverine to get information about the Anaerobic processes that occur after nitrification. The Hypoxic ( low oxygen ) process for Nitrite to Nitrate is fairly straight forward, after that many people think that Nitrogen gas is produced, but that is one of many possible pathways for processing, and it is not reliably the most common.
I own a business, and I solve problems. If I solve them well, I have a lot of time on my hands. I solve them well.
> Barry
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