DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[Spuds725]

Interesting but by this description a wet/dry filter (bioballs or biowheel) shouldn't work to convert nitrites to nitrate-- for both of these there is no "low oxygen"--

I assumed that is where this occured--perhaps it does occur somewhere else-- if not it could easily be tested by running a bare bottome tank with no rock and only a wet dry filter....

Can you link back to that thread-- I'm curious about that discussion....

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6498538#post6498538 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Spuds725
Interesting but by this description a wet/dry filter (bioballs or biowheel) shouldn't work to convert nitrites to nitrate-- for both of these there is no "low oxygen"--

Exactly correct, and most Aquarists have come to that particular conclusion, although there might be some exceptions.

I assumed that is where this occured--perhaps it does occur somewhere else-- if not it could easily be tested by running a bare bottome tank with no rock and only a wet dry filter....

Can you link back to that thread-- I'm curious about that discussion....

I will repost with the link.

Happy Reef Keeping ! > barryhc

 

[JimR]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6488596#post6488596 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JimR
Anthony:

Would my Fluval 404 filled with Seachem's Matrix Bio Media, do the same or better than a 5 gal RDSB?

I already have the Fluval, and $13 for 2 liters of Matrix isnt too expensive.

http://seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html




http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=24221;category_id=2607;pcid1=1965;pcid2=

Anybody? Your thoughts? If this would be just as good, I dont need to buy an extra pump,sand,bucket. $13 for the media would be less cost to me.

 

[Spuds725]

Jim... I'm not sure how well that media would work-- you might want to post that question in another section/thread (lighting filtration etc maybe) if you want a timely response---

this discussion is fairly specific and mainly concerned with bucket DSBs-- that media is quite abit different from sand and the setup is quite a bit different (flow through instead of over the media)-- Anthony may or may not be able to answer your question if he happens to read it.--- our ultimate goal is undetectable nitrates-- the path to that goal can vary greatly....

I hope you get an answer to your question.

 

[barryhc]

Spuds, here is the link:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=745968&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

It is a great read. You might as well start at page 1.

Happy Reef Keeping ! > barryhc

 

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by barryhc
The first and most recognized function of denitrification is the reduction of Nitrite into Nitrate and various other results. This process is carried out primarily in a very thin layer or space in the substrate depth.

I've never heard this before.

How is the conversion of nitrite to nitrate "denitrification"?

 

[Mind_nl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6500208#post6500208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
I've never heard this before.

How is the conversion of nitrite to nitrate "denitrification"?

you're right, the process of denitrification is like this:
nitrate → nitrite → nitric oxide → nitrous oxide → dinitrogen gas


I'm just about ready with the designing of my new system, the display tank will be about 300 g with another 200-300 total volume in the basement, including some frag tanks. I have this big vat (about 60g I think) and I was thinking to use this as a DSB bucket. Is there a limmit to the depth of a DSB to still be usefull? Maybe its better to cut the vat in half to have 2 half-high vats standing next to each other, fill them about half way with sand and put some LR on top of it. What do you think?

 

[Weatherman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6503813#post6503813 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mind_nl
you're right, the process of denitrification is like this:
nitrate → nitrite → nitric oxide → nitrous oxide → dinitrogen gas

The standard definitions I'm familiar with are the following:

Aerobic Respiration:
(the conversion of ammonium to nitrite to nitrate in the presense of oxygen)

106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 106O2 => 106 CO2 + 16 NH3 + PO4

(1a) 16 NH4+ + 24 O2 => 16 NO2- + 16 H2O + 32 H+
(1b) 16 NO2- + 8 O2 = 16 NO3

106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 138 O2 => 106 CO2 + 16 HNO3 + H3PO4 + 122 H2O




Denitrification:
(conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas or ammonia in the absense of oxygen)

Nitrate Reduction by Denitrification

106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 94.4 HNO3 -------106 CO2 + 55.5 N2 + H3PO4 + 177 H2O


Dissimilatory Nitrate Reduction to Ammonia

106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 84.8 HNO3 -------106 CO2 + 42.4 N2 + 16 NH3 + H3PO4 + 148.4 H2O

 

[Spuds725]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6503813#post6503813 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mind_nl
Is there a limmit to the depth of a DSB to still be usefull?

I'm not sure of the limit, but Anthony mentioned (in this thread) a fish store that used a 75 gallon tank filled almost entirely with sand, as a DSB for the stores 2000 gallons of water (I'm assuming the tanks shared a common sump)-- I have no idea as to how effective it is (the sand bed) down deep.

 

[JimR]

It was a 55gal the the LFS used. Not that it makes that much of a difference.

 

[eshook]

Its a lot of sand no matter how you look at it. (55 or 75)

I am plan to have a RDSB in my tank from the start. I am going to have 2 containers each ~2 gallons that way I can alternate removing them without affecting the entire system. Plus I am hoping it will be easier to fit 2 smaller containers than 1 big container where my tank will be located.

 

[Skepperz]

Im starting a RDSB with my 50g system, im still a up in air when it comes to getting sand in my area, the people at the hardware store said that their sand would send the PH sky high, I was considering going to the beach and collecting. I know i will have to rinse it well though. Maybe putting some larger grain aragonite sand on top might be good.

I got a great bucket from the brewery shop, itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s 25L, you can convert it to gallons if you like, the lid is not a screw on but it's really water tight. I will post some pics soon.

Skepperz

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6500208#post6500208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
I've never heard this before.

How is the conversion of nitrite to nitrate "denitrification"?

Sorry Weatherman, you are quite right, it is sort of the beginning of the transition between nitrification and denitrification. ( don't you just love to watch me squirm ? )

My point was, really, about the Hypoxic ( low oxygen ) zone where this takes place, and the terrible misunderstandings that obviously have not gone away, because of the incorrect usage of "Oxygenation Terms".

The terms I gave are quite accurate, and the most popular MISUSE is stating that Anoxic = Low Oxygen. It seems that Bob Goemans started this, or maybe he picked it up From Shimek, or some other expert.

The confusion was rampant in this thread, as I have seen it throughout the internet over the past 15 mos. , and quoted incorrectly since many years ago, at least back to the time of the little "Goemans and Gamble" book.

The other thing is that while I am sure that your definitions are quite accurate, many of the hobbyists cannot make much use of that information, including myself.

Most of the the Nitrification cycle, has been explained many times, in laymans terms, and the "laymen" have understood it because of this. We need to get such a "laymans type" explanation of the rest of these processes, so the larger amount of education can continue.

I'll be more careful about that "dividing line" thing.

Thanks > barryhc

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6505225#post6505225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Spuds725
I'm not sure of the limit, but Anthony mentioned (in this thread) a fish store that used a 75 gallon tank filled almost entirely with sand, as a DSB for the stores 2000 gallons of water (I'm assuming the tanks shared a common sump)-- I have no idea as to how effective it is (the sand bed) down deep.

I would think that the tank would be much better for this because of a much larger surface area. ( it was 55 gal. drum by the way, at least initially )

My guesstimation is that the "effectiveness" is not improved significantly beyond about 8" of depth, but the longevity might be improved with greater depths.

> barryhc

 

[Weatherman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6511411#post6511411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
Sorry Weatherman, you are quite right, it is sort of the beginning of the transition between nitrification and denitrification. ( don't you just love to watch me squirm ? )

My point was, really, about the Hypoxic ( low oxygen ) zone where this takes place, and the terrible misunderstandings that obviously have not gone away, because of the incorrect usage of "Oxygenation Terms".

My understanding of the process is that conversion from nitrite to nitrate is part of aerobic respiration. It requires an oxygen rich environment, not oxygen poor, to take place.

The old sand beds with under-gravel filters produced huge amounts of nitrate because the UGF maintained an aerobic environment in the sand.

Bioballs are accurately described as "nitrate factories" because their use, alone, tends to be associated with high nitrate levels. There are no oxygen poor areas on the surface of bioballs.

 

[Glimmerman911]

So with a RDSB of adequate size to reduce the nitrate created from bioballs, they might be good in a sump?

 

[Weatherman]

Generally, bioballs are not a good thing to have if you are using natural filtration methods.

The advantage live rock and DSBs have in converting ammonium all the way to nitrogen gas is that the creation of nitrate and the reduction of nitrate occur in close proximity to each other.

The surface of bioballs provides an excellent environment for the production of nitrate, but then the nitrate has to pass through the water and diffuse into the rock and sand bed in order to be eliminated. While the nitrate is drifting through the water, algae are quite happy to take advantage of it and grow.

 

[Glimmerman911]

But using bioballs and a RDSB, you could have the nitrite be turned into nitrate in the sump by bioballs, then into nitrogen by a RDSB plumbed after the bioballs. This would mean they happen in close proximity to each other, and better yet, away from your display tank.

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6511759#post6511759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
My understanding of the process is that conversion from nitrite to nitrate is part of aerobic respiration. It requires an oxygen rich environment, not oxygen poor, to take place.

That is exactly true, I did not state otherwise. It is the conversion of nitrate to "whatever" that "begins" in the Hypoxic ( low oxygen ) zone, before the remainder of the process occurs predominantly, in the Anoxic zone.

Bioballs are accurately described as "nitrate factories" because their use, alone, tends to be associated with high nitrate levels. There are no oxygen poor areas on the surface of bioballs.

EXACTAMUNDO again ! !

> barryhc

 

[eshook]

Would a single RDSB use *all* the nitrate from the bioballs? If it couldn't then you would still have the algae problem. If 1 or 2 would utilize this, then maybe we will see a return in bioballs?